U12 Ideas

Jim Dempsey · From: Belmar, New Jersey, USA

I have a S12 6floor / 4knees.I can put another knee on(LKV),but prefer not to.Can I get some ideas from you U12 players on what would be the best copedant.--Thanks,Jim

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

    LKL  LKR   P1   P2   P3   P4   P5   P6   RKL  RKR


F#       +G       


D#                                                -D


G#                  +A


E   +F                   +F#       +E        -D#


B             +C#        +C#            +C#


G#                  +A                  +A#


F#                            -F


E   +F                             -D        -D#


B        +C   +C#                                 +D


G#                  +A


E   +F   -D#                  +F


B        -G#                  +C#

Jim Dempsey · From: Belmar, New Jersey, USA

yup,that'll do!....Thanks b0b

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

How does U12 tuning go with getting those E9 country sounds? I'm thinking about getting into this tuning sometime, but don't wanna lose the E9 stuff that I love,

Damien

Jim Dempsey · From: Belmar, New Jersey, USA

Damien,---I'm trying this Uni tuning for the first time.I had E9th and E7th before,but never tried this.b0b,i'm looking at the chart and see pedal 5 on the 4th string has an E.Is that a typo?---Jim

Jerry Heath · From: Harrah, Oklahoma, USA

Damien,

That's the beauty of the U12, you can keep the classic E9 sound while having access to most of the B6 or Bb6 stuff depending on how your tuning. I believe Bob's tuning would be B6 by lowering the E's to Eb. There's lots of discussion in the archives about this, do a search on U12 you'll find plenty to think about.

------------------
Jerry Heath
Sierra Sessions U-12
Nashville 400
Sessions 400
Profex II

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I think the knee levers are best with pulls that you use a lot, and pulls that combine with pedals (and with the other knee). I think b0b's LKR does not meet these criteria. So I would swap it with his P5. Or swap it with P6, leaving the high F# raise on the knee lever.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Jim - That is not a typo. With the RKL you have a B6 tuning. That P5 raises the high D# back up to E and lowers the lower D# down to D natural. So with the RKR you have a B6 chord and by pushing down on P5 you have an E9.

Lee

Jim Dempsey · From: Belmar, New Jersey, USA

Thanks Lee for clarifying that.I understand now.--Jim

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that having the first string raise on a left lever, like Lloyd Green does, is a Very Good Idea. The C6th P8 changes don't interfere with the E9th usage of the high F# to G. That's why I put it on that lever.

Swapping it with P6 and keeping the first string change on the lever as Earnest suggested would probably work well too.

The main thing that's missing here is the 5th string lower to A#, which should probably go on a vertical.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 12 May 2005 at 08:54 PM.]

Danny Naccarato · From: Burleson, Texas

Jim, you can get the same change on pedal 5 by releasing the lever lowering your E's. Check out the copedent here and you'll see what I mean. Engage LKR and release RKR gives you that exact change, w/o having to use a pedal.

Danny

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Jim,
Having played a U-12 for many years I think the following copedant would work better for you....JH in Va.



    LKL LKR 1  2  3  4  5  6  RKL RKR


F#


D#       D                         C#


G#             A


E                 F#           F   D#


B    A#     C#    C# C#    A#


G#             A     A#


F#                      F


E        D                     F   D#


B    A#     C#             C


G#             A


E                 F#    F  D#


B                       C# G#

The LKR does double duty in both the B6th and E9th modes........JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Kiyoshi Osawa · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Wow! I really like Jerry Hayes' setup there. Except the placement of the LKR would have to be done carefully. It may not be a problem for some people to reach that lever and also play pedals ABC as well as P4 thru P6, but being a short player, I would have to have this on a long vertical. This problem would probably also apply to LKL, which also works in B6 and E9.

Other than that, I really like it. I'm a big fan of the "less is more" approach.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I have a question for the U-12 players. On the pedal that raises the the 4th string back to E in "B6th mode", what happens if you use that pedal without your E's lowered? Does it stay at E?

The pedal seems unnecessary if you have a "double duty" D lever like Jerry's (above). I really like that, but I wouldn't want to do without the G lever on E9th. Here I've added the 7th string raise to G# which is very useful in country music:

    LKL  LKR   P1   P2   P3   P4   P5   P6   RKL  RKR


F#                                                +G


D#       -D                                  -C#


G#                  +A


E   +F                   +F#                 -D#


B             +C#        +C#       +C#


G#                  +A             +A#


F#                            -F                  +G#


E   +F   -D                                  -D#


B             +C#                       +C                 


G#                  +A


E   +F                        +F        -D#   


B                             +C#       -G#

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 13 May 2005 at 07:39 AM.]

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

b0b

On an all-pull guitar that pedal would raise the E to an F (probably out-of-tune F).

On my old Emmons Push/Pull, I had it set up so that it would raise the D# to E if the knee-lever was engaged, but would do nothing if the knee-lever was not engaged.

Click Here

Lee

[This message was edited by Lee Baucum on 13 May 2005 at 08:07 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

OK, why is the D# / Eb lever always on the right leg?

Why not on the LKR which naturally wants to move right when you go for all those B6 pedals with the left foot?

This would make sense to me, keep my Emmons placement, and still make it useful with out losing much.

The E-F raise seems less needed in B6 mode anyway, so less leg waste.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 May 2005 at 02:40 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Still wondering on this last question.
DD

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

The reason is ease of combining with the typical C6 pedals.

Hold LKR and simultaneously depress P5, then P5 and P6, then rock off P6, then press P7 and then P8.

Now do the same with RKL and combine with all those pedals and combinations.

THAT'S WHY.

A second reason is that you will need to combine the E to D# lever with B to Bb. A typical placement of the B to Bb lever is LKV. That works fine if E to D# is on the right knee. Also, you typically have more knee levers on the left knee. To use those changes out of the B6 positions, you'd have to have the E to D# on the right knee.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 May 2005 at 10:15 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I believe (as did Jeff Newman) that on a U-12 the lowers on strings 4 & 8 should be on the RKR. Sometimes if you're doing a lot of B6th playing you might have to hold that lever in for a while and it's just more of a natural way of doing it. Try this exercise. Set in a chair with you knees and ankles about 6 to 8 inches apart, relax your legs and you'll see that your legs will fall out (RKR) and never in as it's the natural direction for them to go. I agree with b0b on the F# to G# raise on string 7. I couldn't live without that change but I have it on pedal 1 with the other pedals moved over a slot.....JH in Va.

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I totally disagree with that argument, but wholeheartedly agree with lowering E's on the right leg on a universal guitar. RKL is a much more comfortable placement for me. Maybe it's just me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

David,
FWIW, Sierra made alot of S12U's with the E>Eb's on LKR.
The concept was based on the idea that one would "Lock" the E>Eb change... (now calm down fellers!

), and flip the lever up and out of the way, leaving you with clear access to the standard five 6th pedals.
This copedant can be viewed at the Sierra website: http://sierrasteels.com/pages/setup.html

I personally have always had the E>Eb change on RKR, ala Jeff Newmans "B6 Universal" book circa '82.

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

My copedent is on my web site along with some B6th licks. Sorry I don't know how to attach on here or would poat them. I run a basic emmons with 8 & 5. Don't seem to have problems on either tuning

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

David Doggett · Posted 16 May 2005 9:31 am

Jerry and Donald, I agree with Larry. If I sit in a chair with my legs spread the way they are playing pedal steel, my legs tend to fall inward if anything. But most important, the muscles pulling your leg inward are stronger than the ones pushing your leg outward. I can hold a lever inward indefinitely with no fatigue, but not outward. Also, to elaborate on the reason Larry gave for having the E-lower lever on the right leg, a lot of right knee pyrotechnics interfere with smooth volume pedal action. Holding the E-lower lever stable for extended periods does not interfere with the volume pedal. Conversely, the left leg needs to be free at all times to use both levers and pedals. So having it imobilized with the E-lower lever would be intolerable to me (I tried it that way once for about 10 seconds).

Here is my U12 copedant. One thing I tried to do was to keep a classic E9 setup, because of years of E9 habits, and so I can play other people's guitars. Therefore, I have the F lever where Lloyd put it, and the 2nd string D/C# lever where most D10s have it. Once I tried the 8th string F# raise on the C pedal, I couldn't live without it. I love the sound of that pull, you don't have to worry about blocking string 7 when you move to the next chord, and the pull can be tuned with the octave on string 4 while 7 is tuned as the 5th to the B root on open string 5. This copedant has a left vertical, but I played for years without that by pulling the first string behind the bar.

The B6 stuff is still in progress. The C# raise on string 2 on the E-lower lever is equivalent to having a D on top for C6 (and string one is equivalent to a G on top). That C# also works well as a scale note when the E lower lever is used for minor chords in either E9 or B6. Pedal 6 came like that from the previous owner. But it seems redundant with LKR, so I may change one of those. Someday I want to add a center knee cluster dedicated to B6.

The parentheses denote prospective additions, and the brackets denote prospective removals.

		LKL	LKV	LKR	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	RKL	RKR


		F	AB7th		A	B	C	BW	5	6	7	EL	D


1	F#		G, G#										


2	D#											C#	D, C#


3	G#					A							


4	E	F					F#			E		Eb	


5	B				C#		C#				C#		


6	G#					A					Bb		


7	F#		G, G#						F				


8	E	F		D			F#			D		Eb	


9	B				C#			C					[Bb]


10	G#					A					(Bb)		


11	E	(F)						D#	F				(F#)


12	B				C#	(A)		G#	C#

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 May 2005 at 10:43 AM.]

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 May 2005 at 10:52 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

A change you might also like to try is string 12, B>A on the A-pedal.
If you currently have B>C# on string 12, just pull the rod and put it in a lowering hole.
My understanding is that it is/was a Zane Beck change from his early S12(U?) days.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Here is my copedent as it will arrive when I finaly get it.

             Sierra 14


Str        A     B     C      LKL   LKU   LKR    4     5     6     7     RKL   RKR


 1   F#                             G#    


 2   Eb                                                                         D


 3   G#          A    


 4    E               F#       F          Bb                *E            Eb    


 5    B   C#          C#                                          C#    


 6   G#                             F#                            A#    


 7   F#                                                F    


 8    E                        F                             D            Eb    


 9    B   C#     A                        Bb     C                              D


10   G#    


11    E                                         D#     F    


12    B                                         G#    C#    


13   G#   


14    E   





*P6 4th st tuned to E when P6 engaged

Not close to my current D-10 mode, but it seems interesting.

I will miss the Pedal 0 Franklin change,
and want to lower G's too.
and I may switch LKV with LKR (yes the Bb's are one string off)

I am interested in comments from Uniplayers about it.

I had planned to have it come to me sooner, but the move south means it willbe delayed again. DRAT.
I wanna mess with this critter tout de suite.
DD

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2005 at 12:11 PM.]

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2005 at 12:14 PM.]

[This message was edited by b0b on 17 May 2005 at 02:47 PM.]

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