| Author |
Topic: Are The Nuances Of Steel Guitars Lost On The Bandstand? |
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 21 May 2018 1:04 pm |
|
You've spent time and hard-earned money to get the perfect pedal steel guitar. It has just the right tone, timbre, vibe, string separation (and whatever other vague descriptive terms you can come up with) and it makes you smile every time you play it.
What happens once you get on stage with 3, 4, 5 other musicians? Once the sound levels go up and all the music and noise is bouncing around the room, what happens to that perfect guitar? Does it still sound the same as it did back at home or in your studio?
All those nuances are still there; but, can you still hear them on stage with that loud crash cymbal ringing in your ears and the bass vibrating the entire stage? Can the folks in the audience and on the dance floor hear them?
Are the subtleties and nuances of your favorite pedal steel guitar lost on a loud bandstand?
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande |
|
|
 |
Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
|
Posted 21 May 2018 1:51 pm
|
|
I was out to hear a friends band last Friday. On the break I was talking with the guitar player about just this topic.
He was playing a semi-hollow Tele with stock fender Humbuckers. The conversation went something like this.
ME: I was surprised you were able to get such a nice jangly sound out of those humbuckers.
HE: Thanks for saying that. When I switch the coil tap or use a specific effect most people just say it got loud.
So yes. I think it does make a difference to some people. But it always makes a difference to me even if I can't hear it all the time.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
|
|
|
Randy Schneider
From:
SW New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 3:12 pm
|
|
| As an audience member, it's hard for me to pick up on too many subtleties. If I'm close to the stage, I've generally got some sort of earplugs in... |
|
|
|
Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 5:10 pm
|
|
| My EQ settings stay the same. If the band gets loud I may have to increase my Reverb setting a little. My master gain is set wide open and my pre-gain I adjust to how loud the band is and what I need to effectively use my volume pedal properly. I am using a NV 112. |
|
|
|
Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 5:54 pm
|
|
I think this speaks to a bigger issue of developing professionalism and onstage listening. Occasionally, volume gets out of hand by accident but more often it’s by players who aren’t used to LISTENING to the whole music presentation, and subsuming their own part within it. Jamming at bluegrass festivals with acoustic instruments or at informal private jams aren’t critical but playing in public as paid entertainment means, I believe, holding yourself to higher standards. Players should develop habits of always support vocalists, which often means generally staying out of the way. Actually, I often stop playing or play at a whisper for verses or when someone else is soloing - just like the mix on a professional recording. Less is nearly always more in terms of listenability. Once players patiently treat their performances with truly open ears, every instrument’s subtleties will be available to listeners.
_________________
2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
|
|
|
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 6:56 pm
|
|
| I have played at a few steel conventions and the problem with hearing the subtleties are not there. But then again the back up musicians are in the professional realm. |
|
|
|
Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
|
Posted 21 May 2018 9:28 pm
|
|
I don't know if a blanket answer is valid. But I can say with confidence that the nuances of MY steel guitar are lost (if I had any to begin with).
| Randy Schneider wrote: |
| If I'm close to the stage, I've generally got some sort of earplugs in... |
Same here. Out front, or on the bandstand, I always use some sort of hearing protection.
The usual pattern at a gig is:
I use in-ear monitors, custom mix, NOT turned up loud. Yes I can hear the subtleties, tone control adjustments, picking position and attack, intonation, bar technique...
During first break the band says, "We can't hear the steel. You're not loud enough."
Begin second set. Bass player with 500-watt amp turns up his volume. Drummer starts full-body workout. Need I say more? I remove In-Ears, insert good foam ear-plugs, listen to my own amp instead of a monitor, reduce reverb level so it doesn't get [more] muddy, and hope for the best.
With apologies to Ronnie Milsap, subtleties are "Lost in the 60's Tonight." Don't get me wrong, I like playing out, and prefer it to sitting at home wishing I was. But this seems to be the current "state of the art."
Refer to "never-ending stage volume" thread. |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 21 May 2018 10:46 pm
|
|
If you want to get heard in "loud" situations, cut the bass (seriously), turn up the mids and overall volume, and dig in. At high levels bass gets muddy anyway, so leave that range to the bass-player and the drummer.
If that doesn't cut it, forget all about "subtleties" and "nuances" and add distortion…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UASaVxkN_o8 |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 8:39 am
|
|
| Randy Schneider wrote: |
| As an audience member, it's hard for me to pick up on too many subtleties. If I'm close to the stage, I've generally got some sort of earplugs in... |
Agreed.
I wonder if musicians who don't play steel guitar would ever pick up on the subtleties that are important to us.
I'm sure that non-musicians could not care less. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 9:14 am
|
|
I agree with Georg, raising midrange before volume is the way to go with an amateurish stage sound. I have been lucky to play with more great musicians than slobs, and the good ones have noticed my sound and my playing as much as I do theirs.
If you stay true to your playing style and bring the subtle nuance to the stage every time, your band mates and audience might not notice it for what it is, but they might notice that something is making the band sound good. |
|
|
|
Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 12:02 pm
|
|
Music is just like a conversation, where each one takes his/her turn to "say" something. It is hard to do that properly, though, when someone loudly dominates the "conversation".
However, if it is not buried too much, people can pick out what they want to hear........Pat |
|
|
|
Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 12:51 pm
|
|
| Georg is right. What sounds good at home usually won't sound that great on the bandstand. At home, we like to hear a nice kind of bassy tone, mids turned down, without sharp highs, and it does sound better at home. Playing with a band, this tone just blends in with the bass and drums, and gets muddy. If you play louder, that makes it sound worse. With a band, I cut the bass some and turn up the mids, make sure the highs are clear sounding, and try not to add too much reverb and delay. It's a cleaner sound that you can hear over the clutter of the other instruments, without getting too loud. |
|
|
|
Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 4:28 pm
|
|
I’m of the thinking that if you have to find a personal EQ solution to cut through a too loud stage volume problem, you’ve lost the battle.
Yes, I agree you want to find that sonic space in the overall mix, where you can be best heard.
I think subtlety from any of the players is decreased if the band lacks dynamics, or if they don’t understand simple ensemble protocol. |
|
|
|
Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 4:33 pm
|
|
Sorry, double post.
Last edited by Steve Spitz on 25 Oct 2018 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 21 Oct 2018 6:43 pm
|
|
Just to clarify, what I am talking about are the subtleties and nuances of the guitar, not the amplification and eq controls.
Be it a Sho-Bud, Emmons, Zum, or even a vintage Bigsby ...
Some people spend a lot of time and money on just the right guitar. It makes you smile when you play it.
Even your spouse or significant other can hear it.
It's got THAT vibe, tone, timbre ...
Just what your ears want to hear.
What happens to all that when you're on stage, at stage volume? |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 22 Oct 2018 3:44 am
|
|
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
[…] It's got THAT vibe, tone, timbre ...
Just what your ears want to hear.
What happens to all that when you're on stage, at stage volume? |
Again, unless the player "compensates" for the changes in loudness – mainly lower the bass at "stage levels" compared to "home levels", any "variable amplification" instrument's wibe, tone, timbre will sound radically different with changes in location and sound-level.
Minor subtleties and nuances tend to get drowned out in high level band situations anyway, so, regardless of "compensation", few in an audience will hear the instrument as the player want.
Main character of a steel guitar will get through though, IF it is played loud enough and pretty much limited to its main frequency range – with lowered bass and high treble. Not to mention how much extra effect one will have available for "punching through" in the mid-range when the amp/speaker doesn't have to burn off energy for those more or less useless sub-bass frequencies. |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 22 Oct 2018 4:46 am
|
|
What a musician hears or wants to hear isn't always what the audience hears. Disregarding how the other band members sound, much is lost in the audience. "Stereo" is an example, It sounds great to the guy on the stage but its lost on most of the audience.
I've played in bands since 1959 and probably been through it all. Lead Guitar, Bass, Rhythm Guitar and Pedal Steel. Musicians that knew when and what to play and those that played all the time. I try to stay the course regardless and don't find I need to change my amp settings. Over the years I've had a Peavey Session 500, Nashville 400 (with factory tone mod), Nashville 1000 and Nashville 112 and I've used the same EQ with them all. |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 22 Oct 2018 8:00 am
|
|
Stereo effects will reach an audience if the amps are mic’d and sent to PA channels that are panned hard left and right. Even in a large concert hall, many of the front rows will get it.
Even if you keep your amp settings the same every time you play, other things get lost to varying extent on a loud stage - actual playing techniques, like subtle slides and vibrato, a chime that gets buried in a cymbal crash, a volume swell that comes off more like bad timing, and picking dynamics (which accentuate the tonal nuance of the guitar and your amp settings). On a stage full of pro players, all those things are heard and understood. |
|
|
|
Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
|
Posted 23 Oct 2018 4:46 pm
|
|
I have found there are quite different qualities of subtlety and flavor at various volume levels, and even genres of music. One of the reasons I enjoy both full-tilt large band romps and Americanaish duo and trio settings. Completely different kinds and levels of expression to explore.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
|
|
|
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
|
Posted 23 Oct 2018 5:24 pm
|
|
I play with three groups. One is a classic rock-type band, a jam band, if you will. I use distortion, B3 tones, all sorts of firepower. The second group is a honkytonk country band where I play...Waylon, Willy, Cash, a BUNCH of new stuff, like Sturgill Simpson. The third group does Grateful Dead, originals and "alt-country." A very wide variety between them all.
The first band is all dynamics and tone. The second band is all dynamics and tone. Guess what...the third band is all dynamics and tone. Last band allows for more subtle nuance. In fact, it's way harder than the other two. The rock and HT bands are basically balls to the wall. The tones for them are not unrelated, but I use two different amps to achieve the tones I want. I use a Session 400 for the rock band and a modified tweed Deluxe for the other two. Brutal...sweet...clear...harmonic distortion...hard lows...soft lows. All have a place at the table.
I don't think I've added to the fundamental conversation, except to agree that the style of music and the venue, and the dynamics of the group are all a part of the equation.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
|
|
|
Barry Blackwood
|
Posted 24 Oct 2018 7:49 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Are The Nuances Of Steel Guitars Lost On The Bandstand? |
Pretty much..  |
|
|
|
Chris Walke
From:
St Charles, IL
|
Posted 24 Oct 2018 9:14 am
|
|
| Would depend on the band. And the soundman. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 24 Oct 2018 11:30 am Re: Are The Nuances Of Steel Guitars Lost On The Bandstand?
|
|
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
Are the subtleties and nuances of your favorite pedal steel guitar lost on a loud bandstand?
|
Most of the compliments I get these days are from musicians - both in the band, and in the audience. I try hard to fill the holes, and to give proper support to the players and the singer. The few times that I do play nowadays, I'm constantly humbled when players tell me that nobody else plays like me, and that I play things that most others do not. There's so much a steel can do when given the opportunity, and when the other players in the band have the mindset to work as a unit.
Of course, it all goes to hell when they don't. |
|
|
|
Charley Bond
From:
Inola, OK, USA
|
Posted 24 Oct 2018 5:07 pm Lost nuances of the Steel Guitar
|
|
When I first started, playing on top of someone would get you a set down with the band leader & maybe the fellow you played over. After awhile, that no longer was a problem, because I knew when to play & what to play.
for my last 25 years, when that is a problem, me & my wife get up & leave. In the last 10 years plus, if there wasn't a Steel Guitar on the stage when we walked in, we never paid a fee & left.
That's my 2 cents
_________________
Steel Guitar players are members of a Special Family |
|
|
|
