Tuning: Some Examples

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Experiment 1:
Drone Chords
Open E 8 6 5 / 6 5 4 / 5 4 3
Open C# (same strings)
Open A (same strings)
G NP at 3rd fret
G A+F at 6th fret
G A+B at 10th fret

Tuned JI by harmonics http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji.mp3
Tuned ET all notes to 440 http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/et.mp3
Tuned with my hybrid between JI and ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/tampered.mp3

Experiment 2: A real tune: Bud's Bounce
JI http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_ji.mp3
ET http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_et.mp3
"Tampered" http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/buds_tampered.mp3

Hope this helps give a sound to what we've been discussing.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 06:07 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Your A pedal sounds flat to me in the JI example, Larry. What harmonic did you tune it to?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

6th string B pedal 4th fret harmonic -- about 16 cents flat as I recall. The A was about 4 cents flat to begin with.

Checked it twice -- before and after playing the passage. I think it's just beating against the tempered piano. Sounded fine on its own, both A+F and A+B.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 July 2005 at 06:17 PM.]

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

.. Larry, I pride myself on my ear.. The "tampered" examples of both excersizes were NOTICABLY "sweeter".. more pleasing to the ear. I am not familiar with this "hybrid" tuning style of yours.. I may have missed something if you posted about it.. I would appreciate you elaborating a bit,if you would be so kind.. Nice playing!... good tone too! bob

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Sure, Bob

I tune
E's to ET with the A and B pedals down -- about 2-4 cents sharp on my Emmons and Bud and 4-6 cents sharp on my Fessy after you release the pedals. Compensates for cabinet drop and shifts the tuning a bit sharp, to avoid the extreme deviations in thirds and sixths w/JI.

G#'s 1Hz / 4 cents flat of ET,
C#'s 2Hz / 8 cents flat,
F's 3Hz / 12 cents flat
A's and B's to ET (or sometimes a little sharp to match the E's better).

F#'s to ET if I'm using compensators, then tune the compensated note about 2Hz / 8 cents flat. If not using compensators I split the difference, about 1-1.5Hz / 4-6 cents flat.

Most everything else ends up at 440.

Tuning is a personal thing, like how you dress or comb your hair. It contributes to a player's personality like the brand of guitar or amp or tone preference.

It's kinda like your amp settings. Different players use different settings. It helps determine their musical personality, just like how one tunes.

That's my take on it.

Thanks for the nice comments.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 July 2005 at 06:03 PM.]

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Maybe it's my 40plus years of playing straight up 440 6 string, but the JI clips sound incredibly sour to my ear, the tampered tunig somewhat sour, and the 440 clips right on.
What does everyone else think?

Nice playng on the bounces Larry, very relaxed!! JimP

[This message was edited by Jim Peters on 24 July 2005 at 06:57 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I always tune my pedaled C# to the G#, and then tune the A from that. If you tune the C# to the A note, it might not be in tune with the G# and your A+F position will be out of tune. And that's exactly what I hear in the JI sample - the A+F position is not in tune because the C# isn't in tune with the G#.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Larry. I liked ALL of them, possibly the ET a slight bit better, but I can't be sure. Might just be my mental frame going into it. I know on the auto adjusted keyboard that b0b introduced us to ,I without fail, chose ET.

It's your playing that makes it either way.

I don't remember if it was you that posted Ashoken Farewell a while ago, but I fouund it to be totally great. If you can find it, or if I can, it should be posted. Your tone center is beyond match that I've heard.

I'm plugging the Podxt in all the time this weeek, and will just keep it running while I practice. I have tons of HDD.

I WILL post what I come up with with no reverb.

( just kidding about the 'no reverb')

Great.

EJL

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

How about this, b0b
here's the JI example -- just the last 4 bars in G with the A+B pedals at the 10th fret

with piano http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_w_pno.mp3

and without http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_no_pno.mp3

the third may be a teeny bit flat, but it's the piano that creates the dissonance. Exactly why I stopped tuning JI.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

. . . and, Eric
I probably have the version of Ashokan Farewell you mention, but the one on my website is off my new CD. I went for an authentic feel, rather than the steel playing the whole tune. Some will prefer it one way, others the other, I s'pose.

Give it a listen. It's on my tunes page. Let me know what you think. I'll try to dig the other version up if you'd like.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Willie Crisel · From: Charlotte, Tennessee, USA

i still think it all depends on the guitar and the amount of cabinet drop.that's why you can tune a legrand III with counter force to 440,the more drop the more tempered the tunning,,i like your tuning the best,great tone and playing also,

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1990 ,Emmons Legrand II 8 and 4,1994 Legrand II 3 and 5 Peavey LTD Peavey Session 400 Ibanez analog delay

[This message was edited by Willie Crisel on 24 July 2005 at 09:35 PM.]

[This message was edited by Willie Crisel on 24 July 2005 at 09:36 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 24 Jul 2005 11:04 pm

Hmmm... Well, all the ETs sounded okay to me, which is a little surprising, but maybe not when played in unison with a piano like that. That's the toughest test for JI. The JI definitely sounded the worst on the chords at the nut (E, C#, A); and of course the C# was the worst offender. Interestingly, with the G chords played by your ear with the bar, everything sounded better, and I didn't have a strong preference.

On Bud's Bounce, your tampered tuning sounded sweetest to me. But neither of the others sounded very bad. This could simply be a case that you are best doing it the way you are most use to.

Now to quibble a little. Like b0b, I don't hear your JI as being what I am use to (I don't tune pure JI, but I tune closer to JI than your tampered system). I think we need to hear all the chords alone, before hearing them with the piano - just to be sure we are all on the same page as to what JI is. I tune JI either by listening to the chords and individual intervals, or by a chart of pure JI intervals, setting the intervals by watching a meter. I am not familiar with how to tune JI by harmonics. Could you please explain exactly how that is done and why it should work?

To best deal with cabinet drop at the nut, one can split the difference between the pedal up (E chord) and pedal down (A chord) positions. So for example, if your E strings drop 8 cents when the A and B pedals are pressed, you would tune the Es 4 cents flat of 440 with the pedals pressed, and they should return 4 cents sharp when the pedals are released. Then either position is within 4 cents of 440 (this works with JI and ET). I don't see the point of tuning one position to the meter and letting the other one go where it may. We have to play in both positions. Also, because the steel is playing in higher octaves than A-above-middle-C (the 440 standard), you need to "stretch" everything about 8 cents sharp of 440. I believe these changes will get rid of some of the flatness with JI at the nut; but this might introduce more sharpness to ET, and possily also your tampered tuning.

By the meter (ignoring stretch), the tonic and 5th of the E chord should be one-half the cabinet drop sharp of 440, and the 3rds should be 14 cents flat of the tonic and 5th; or from 440 should be 14 cents flat minus half the cabinet drop (e.g., 10 cents flat, if the cabinet drop of the Es is 8 cents). For the A chord, the tonic and 5th should be half the cabinet drop flat of 440, and the 3rds should be 14 cents flat of the tonic and 3rd (or 14 cents flat of 440 plus half the cabinet drop; total of 18 cents flat of 440 if the cabinet drop is 8 cents).

b0b, I don't understand why you would tune the C# (A pedal stop) to G# (open string 6). The C#, as the 3rd of the A chord, should be tuned 14 cents flat of the open E strings (the 5ths of the A chord), with the pedals down. The A roots of that chord are the B pedal stops, which should be tuned to the same thing as the E strings, with the pedals down.

Finally, The C# roots of the A/F postion are the A pedal stops. As the 3rds of the A chord, the C# will be 14 cents flat of 440 plus half the cabinet drop (total of 18 cents below 440 in the above example). The G# on the open string 5 will also be 14 cents flat plus half the cabinet drop, because that was the 3rd of the E chord. So the tonic and 5ths of the C# chord should match, even though one is pedaled and one is open. The F pedal stop is the 3rd of the chord, and so should be 14 cents flat of the C# and G#. That whole chord will be hopelessly flat at the nut, but the intervals should be the same as in the E and A chords.

Maybe this is how you tuned things, but one would have to hear the chords without the piano to know for sure. In the E and A chords, the tonics and 5ths should be identical for JI and ET. Only the 3rds should sound different. If that is not the case, then something is not exactly right.

No matter what, Larry has certainly done a big service. Doing all that retuning is tedious and time consuming.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 July 2005 at 12:14 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Larry, on the first track, are you sure your piano is in tune?
Just kidding, we all know all pianos are out of tune.

I'd find it hard to tell a dime's worth of difference between the ET and the tampered tuning, but I'd say in both sections/examples, I find your tampered tuning a little 'sweeter', as somehow the character of both/all the instruments is more differentiated. Ashokan Farewell is a good case in point, and to me, ensemble playing is the point in this thread.

But even as a solo instrument, I find the JI 'just' out of tune.
This is a very interesting experiment. Thanks.

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

That's some fine playing, but in terms of tuning, I go along with b0b. I think the main reason why the mini poll shows a preference for ET/tampered ET is simply that in what was meant to be JT, pedals - or strings - are noticably out of tune. I don't know the reason for that, but it's a fact, period. (Edited: now re-recorded and corrected)

Like b0b, I tune my A pedal to the open 3rd string (I want that perfect minor or 6th chord, right?). But that C# will also form a perfect major third with the A on the 6th string, B pedal down, which was tuned to the open E string.

I thought I'd post the cent/hertz chart for JT intervals which I made two years ago and cleaned up today at http://homepage.hispeed.ch/updowncat/cents_hertz_chart.xls You'll find all the numbers there DISREGARDING cabinet drop compensation (which you'll have to add if needed). This is not a PS tuning chart, but an interval chart. Still, the numbers are all there. There's a chart for single intervals, and for two intervals added.

One remark regarding the tritone in the middle. The JT tritone can have several ratios, but only the ET tritone maintains the symmetry of the chart. Actually, I do tune my Bb lever straight.

Hans

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 25 July 2005 at 06:36 AM.]

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 26 July 2005 at 04:40 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Dave, Hans
Did you listen to the two new clips in my last post b4 this one? Do they sound out of tune without the piano? They don't to me, by themselves and then sound very sour with the ET keyboard.

with piano http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_w_pno.mp3

and without http://www.larrybell.org/mp3/ji_no_pno.mp3

Here's what I'll do. I'll be happy to re-record the JI examples using whatever version of JI you recommend. It's been so long since I've tuned harmonically I may have forgotten how. So, Hans, which of the temperaments from your XL sheet do you want me to use? Tell me how to tune and I'll redo the JI stuff. I really believe that a lot of it is the temperament on the piano. Without the pno it sounds pretty good to me.

That said, I've used semi-meantone or tampered or whatever you care to call it for so long, BOTH ET AND JI THIRDS SOUND OUT OF TUNE TO ME.

Also, Dave, I would not go along with calling a tuning JI if the tonic is not at A=440.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 July 2005 at 07:15 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 25 Jul 2005 7:05 am

Larry, yes I listened to the one example of steel alone, and thought the JI sounded a little off. The main point of this is that we should not be trusting this to our ears. In this experiment everything should be exactly according to the meter, whether JI or ET, so there can be no argument. In Hans chart the difference between JI and ET in cents is in the horizontal yellow line labelled "JT - ET [cents, rounded]." If you want to read the meter in Hz (which I find easier to work with), you use the green horizontal line labelled "JT reference A (rounded)."

David Doggett · Posted 25 Jul 2005 7:43 am

b0b and Hans, I was wrong questioning how you tune the A pedal C# stop. It's a red herring. It doesn't matter whether you tune the A pedal C# to the E string (as the 3rd and 5th of the A chord, respectively) or to the open G# string (as the root and 5th of the C# chord, respectively). In both cases, the C# will be tuned 14 cents flat of the E chord root, which would be 440, if not for cabinet drop. If you assume the open E string is the 5th of the A chord and tune the A pedal C# so it is the 3rd of that chord, the C# will be 14 cents below the E. A proper 5th is 1.5 cents sharp of the root, but that is such a small difference that for practical purposes I tune my 5ths the same as my roots. So if my A chord 5th (E string) is 440, my C# will be 437. But, my G# string, as the 3rd of the open E chord, is also tuned 437. So if I tune C# on the A pedal as the root to the fifth on the G# string, it will be 437 that way also. If you actually try to tune your 5ths a couple cents sharp of the roots, there would be a slight difference in the two methods. But I don't think we could hear it.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The A+B position isn't the one that sounded bad to me, Larry. It's the A+F. It sounds like the C# isn't in tune with the G#.

That's not a real piano, is it? I played in a trio with upright piano and bass for four years. I was tuning pure JI at the time. The only thing that sounded out of tune was the occassional open string.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

David wrote:

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Edited:
Now I see what you guys are doing ! Keep up the good work. Sorry about my first statement.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 25 July 2005 at 09:51 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Why do you reckon that is, Bob?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 197? Sho-Bud S-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

David Doggett · Posted 25 Jul 2005 12:06 pm

b0b, we completely agree that normally tuning and playing should be done with our ears. My comment that we should go strictly by the meter and not trust our ears was meant only for this experiment Larry is doing. I mean, rather than trust his harmnics and ears to find JI, let's do it strictly by the book, according to theoretical JI, and check it with a meter. Hans has provided the book. Larry's last post with the list of notes and cents difference incorporates that.

Now I'm going to take that and adjust it for cabinet drop and stretch tuning. I am going to put Hz in these tables rather than cents difference. The reason is that in working with intervals it is sometimes confusing as to whether one means cents difference from A=440, or cents difference from reference pitch of the root of the chord. Because of cabinet drop and the F pedal problem, they will not always be the same. When you see the Hz number, you know it is in reference to absolute A=440, and not relative to the chord root. Also, many meters are just easier to read in Hz. My Boss TU12 only has a mark every 5 cents.

Larry said his Fessy has 4 to 6 cents drop on the Es when the A and B pedals are pressed. I am going to round that up to 8 cents or 2 Hz, and split it between the up pedal and down pedal postion. Stretch tuning would put the reference pitch for the E on string 4 at about 8 cents (2 Hz) above 440. Since I already rounded up the cabinet drop, I'm going to round the stretch down to 4 cents or 1 Hz. Together with the cabinet drop this puts the Es at 442. This, not entirely coincidentally, is what Paul Franklin tunes to. So let's go with it and see what happens.

E9 JI by the book (assuming no cabinet drop or stretch):

			F	A	B


1	F#	440			


2	D#	437			


3	G#	437			440


4	E	440	434		


5	B	440		437	


6	G#	437			440


7	F#	440			


8	E	440	434		


9	D	444			


10	B	440		437

JI adjusted for 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop on the Es, with A and B pedals pressed:

			F	A				F	A	B


1	F#	441			


2	D#	438			


3	G#	438			439


4	E	441	433		


5	B	441		436	


6	G#	438			439


7	F#	441			


8	E	441	433		


9	D	445			


10	B	441		436

JI adjusted for cabinet drop, and stretched 1 Hz (4 cents):

			F	A	B


1	F#	442			


2	D#	439			


3	G#	439			440


4	E	442	434		


5	B	442		437	


6	G#	439			440


7	F#	442			


8	E	442	434		


9	D	446			


10	B	442		437

Now let's give the same treatment to ET. Actually I'm not sure how to do this. I have never heard an ET tuner discuss how they handle cabinet drop. The first chart below will be ET by the book, ignoring cabinet drop. Every string and every stop is simply tuned to A=440. In the second chart below, 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop is assumed on the Es. Tuning all the open string 1 Hz sharp, and all the pedal and knee stops 1 Hz flat splits the difference. This means the intervals are equal with the pedals up or down. But in neither case is the reference exactly 440. But in both cases it is within 1 Hz (4 cents) of 440, and so below the bench mark of 5 cents that is considered negligible. In the final table I added 1 Hz (4 cents) stretch, which is considered a standard way of doing ET.

ET by the book (assuming no cabinet drop or stretch):

			F	A	B


1	F#	440			


2	D#	440			


3	G#	440			440


4	E	440	440		


5	B	440		440	


6	G#	440			440


7	F#	440			


8	E	440	440		


9	D	440			


10	B	440		440

ET adjusted for 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop on the Es:

			F	A	B


1	F#	441			


2	D#	441			


3	G#	441			439


4	E	441	439		


5	B	441		439	


6	G#	441			439


7	F#	441			


8	E	441	439		


9	D	441			


10	B	441		439

ET adjusted for cabinet drop and stretched 1 Hz (4 cents):

			F	A	B


1	F#	442			


2	D#	442			


3	G#	442			440


4	E	442	440		


5	B	442		440	


6	G#	442			440


7	F#	442			


8	E	442	440		


9	D	442			


10	B	442		440

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 July 2005 at 04:40 PM.]

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