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Topic: same knee levers for both necks? |
scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 20 Apr 2018 3:21 pm |
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my Sierra Sessions have 5 knee levers, all 5 of which I have working both necks. does anyone else do this?
I know most guitars have 2 sets of left knee levers, but I really don't shift my position much at all when I switch to C6. I'm totally comfortable using the same lefts on both necks. I almost never use the volume pedal either, so I suppose I stay a bit more centered than those who do. my right foot works pedals 7 & 8, left foot works 4,5,6.
just wondering about others' personal habits or preferences, and also if there are other brands besides the Sierras where all the knee levers have the ability to function on both necks.
(I posted this same topic in the Pedal Steel section, wasn't sure which was more appropriate. mods can delete one if need be)
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
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Posted 20 Apr 2018 5:02 pm
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| My D10 Zum has all 5 knee levers functioning on both necks. It's not that noticeable as far as resistance but I never learned to play the back neck so I can't really comment on that. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 21 Apr 2018 12:03 am
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just a question as the physical placement of K Levers is about ergonomics , not functionality.
If you have your left foot, left knee way over to the left and use PEDS ABC and K's LKL , LV and LKR , how do you access Peds 4,5 or 6 (C6th) with the LKL , LV and LKR physically positioned over PEDS ABC ?
The way most ( maybe not all) steels are configured is to allow the LEFT K levers to function along with PEDS ABC while the C6th tuning is setup to use certain PULLS ( MID guiatr K's) along with Peds 5 and 6 in a comfortable manner.
How is your steel setup so the C6th allows use of those far LEFT levers ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Apr 2018 2:03 pm Re: same knee levers for both necks?
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| scott murray wrote: |
I know most guitars have 2 sets of left knee levers... |
Strange, my own observations are just the opposite. Most players I see (and most guitars sold) use the same left-knee levers for both necks, except possibly the verticals, because they want to maximize the number of available changes. I've had discrete left-knee levers since 1973, and back then almost no players did that. I use 1 thru 5 pedals on E9th, and 4 thru 8 on C6th, so two pedals do double duty, but I have separate left-knee levers for each neck. |
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Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
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Posted 21 Apr 2018 7:19 pm
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| I have a friend who played with the levers working on both necks for a good while that's why I ordered mine that way and I didn't know any better, but he has long since gone to the center knee levers setup. He plays great C6 and I still don't play any. My main guitars now are S10's and a SD 10. |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 21 Apr 2018 11:50 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
just a question as the physical placement of K Levers is about ergonomics , not functionality.
If you have your left foot, left knee way over to the left and use PEDS ABC and K's LKL , LV and LKR , how do you access Peds 4,5 or 6 (C6th) with the LKL , LV and LKR physically positioned over PEDS ABC ?
The way most ( maybe not all) steels are configured is to allow the LEFT K levers to function along with PEDS ABC while the C6th tuning is setup to use certain PULLS ( MID guiatr K's) along with Peds 5 and 6 in a comfortable manner.
How is your steel setup so the C6th allows use of those far LEFT levers ? |
like I said, I don't really shift position at all when switching necks. I also don't use a volume pedal on C6, which may keep me more centered. maybe I can shoot some video to demonstrate how I use my levers on C6, but I never feel like the left levers are out of the way.
thanks for your reply too, Donny. I'd like to know when the second set of levers for C6 became popular and if that really is the more common setup these days.
seems a lot of steels only have 2 knee levers on C6, both on the right knee. I'd like to hear how many levers the average C6 player uses and how they're tuned
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 12:26 am
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| scott murray wrote: |
seems a lot of steels only have 2 knee levers on C6, both on the right knee. I'd like to hear how many levers the average C6 player uses and how they're tuned |
Actually many Steels have 5 knee levers for C6th, 2 on the far right and 3 MID guitar . 3 is probably more common, 2 far right and 1 mid guitar for C6th placed over Peds 5 and 6. This is a MID lever going right
Raise and lower string 3 and raise string 4 are typically very common for a 3 lever C6th setup. That 2nd set of elvers , MID guitar has been around a very long time. I would guess late 60's going into the 70's but they were not a stock over the counter configuration. Jimmy Crawford invented what is termed the Crawford Cluster which I believe was 10 Knee Levers , split between E9th and C6th . Many of the master players were using this setup in the 70's.
By the end of the 70's Sho Bud Super Pro's were being built with 6 levers as standard, 3 on the far left (E9th) 2 on the far right ( E9th and C6th) and 1 MID guitar for C6th.
But I am still confused, I am not understanding how a Steel with two LEFT KNEES placed over the AB Pedals for E9th are accessible for C6th pedals 4,5 or 6 .
I have owned perhaps 15 Steels over my life, none of them had double duty for the LEFT knee levers, E9th and C6th. YES, the right knee levers for certain but never the LEFT knee levers which are the E levers for E9th.
2 current Emmons Steels, 3 recent Carter Steels and a
few Sho Buds included. In addition many Sho Buds don't even have the C6th rod pull chain extended far enough even reach the two far left E levers. Two Carters I owned had 8 levers, 3 far left, 2 far right and 3 MID levers for C6th placed above peds 4,5 and 6.
How do we place our left foot over C6th peds 4 , 5, 6 and have the ability to use the far left levers which are above Peds A+B E9th ?
have I been asleep or am I misunderstanding the topic ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 4:52 am
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I am also confused about common KL's on the left leg. I have had 5 KL's on C6 for over 20 years and it was common a long time before then.
Right knees over the volume pedal and shared with the E9 neck.
RKR- lowers #3 a half tone
RKL-raised #4 and #8 a half tone.
Left knee levers are positioned mid guitar and these levers are not shared with the
LKV- lowers #5 a whole tone
LKR-lowers #4 and #8 a half tone
LKL- has all the pulls normally on pedal 8.
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 5:54 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
But I am still confused, I am not understanding how a Steel with two LEFT KNEES placed over the AB Pedals for E9th are accessible for C6th pedals 4,5 or 6 .
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It may just be me, but I see few steels with the left levers actually centered over pedals A&B. Normally, they're centered more towards the middle of the guitar, somewhere around pedals 3,4&5, and I see this as how it's possible to use the left levers on both necks. If anyone says that the majority of used D10's out there with 8+4 or 8+5 only have 2 levers working on C6th, then so be it; I won't argue the point. But for illustration, I offer the following. Here's a single neck guitar, (note how the levers are not placed over A&B):
Here's a double 'Bud, and the levers have been thoughtfully placed so they could be used on both necks:
And here's a Marlen:
Lastly, an Emmons, with the left levers over pedals 3,4,& 5:
I will admit that players who use an Emmons setup are at a distinct disadvantage if they want to use the same left levers on both necks. But the OP asked a question, and I answered it from my point of view. If I'm wrong, I do apologize. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 6:14 am
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In 47 years, I have never known or heard of anyone using the left knee levers for both necks.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jack Goodson
From:
new brockton,alabama (deceased)
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 7:06 am bobbee seymore
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| i remember bobbee seymore used to have a d10 pp that had 8 and 4 and all 4 knees worked on both necks....thanks jack |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 8:08 am
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I believe Herby had all levers working both necks. I think it would be really hard to use the pedals on the far right fluently with the levers. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 8:12 am
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The PEDS on my Legrande II are very similar in placement to the photo above if not exactly the same. . I just sat down and placed my left foot over Peds 4 and 5 and tried to actuate LKL. Very awkward especially with Ped 5. Leg going LEFT, foot going RIGHT.. LKR, I guess it could be done. Problem is, C6th, Peds 5 and 6 are the most common for a traditional setup. Trying to access either left k Lever using C6th peds 5 and 6 is way to awkward for me. Until this thread I had never even thought about it.
Maybe you guys got it figured out but I'm a long way from being that "able" , it would require way too much energy for me !
Evidently there is a reason that many guitars have MID mounted levers for the C6th tuning. I wonder what it is ?   All we have to do is look at the "pro's" setups and see that the mid levers are dominant.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 3:52 pm
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I dunno, maybe Scott, Bobbe and Herby are the rarity, and (most?) others who don't use the same left levers for both necks are doing it right. At any rate, there is no right or wrong - as long as it works for you. I do know that I've seen S12 guitars with 8 pedals, and maybe they don't use all the levers with the end pedals. So few guys in this area play S12 guitars that I really couldn't say, but I will agree that the most-used pedals belong near the center of the guitar. That's one reason I've stayed with and recommended the Day setup... but to each his own.
'Couple S12's:
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2018 4:40 pm
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I use LKR on both necks. I’m able to use it with pedal seven without issues. I’m used to it, and its no problem. I never thought about it.
My setup must be a bit odd. I play both necks during a single tune. I cant be flipping levers up and down, or changing my seating position. It’s the only way I know. It’s not a problem on my modern steels. I do wish they all had a “crossover “ mechanism like my fulawka, where you can disengage the neck not being used. It would make for easier lever action, and less string fatigue.
Most modern steels can handle the both necks issue. I realize not everyone has this demand on their setup. I payed for both necks, I couldn’t imagine not using both during a song if needed.
Sometimes Ill play pads and fills on E9 and solo on C6. I learned C6 first, and had to learn E9 on the job. I had to play both necks to make it through a job. I didn’t know there were separate levers players devoted to C6. I just figured everyone did it like me. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 23 Apr 2018 12:20 am
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Steve, I don't think it's an issue that guitars can't do it, I suppose we all could use the LEFT levers with PEDS 7 and 8 on the C6th using our right leg for the peds. The question I have is how do you use C6 Peds 4, 5 or 6 with the left levers while using your LEFT leg.
Can we use both necks during any song, sure, why not ? thats not the discussion. I do now and then but I move my left leg over Peds 5 and 6. My primary KL's for C6 are RKR and RKL. I recently added mid lever going right and I am about to add mid lever going left, both directly above 5 and 6 where the use of either of the MID levers will be zero effort. Kinda like the E levers directly above peds AB on the E9th.
I am not challenging or questioning anyone's use or ability, I am just asking how do you access the two far LEFT levers easily while your foot and knee are placed over peds 5 and 6 which are the standard , probably most used C6th peds, perhaps even the "home" position.
I suppose I could grab a couple of long pull rods and bellcranks and add the far Left Levers on the Legrande for C6th duty but for me it's about my left foot, left leg, using C6th Peds 5 and 6.
The photo above with Herby doesn't show him using the left levers, just that they are there .
All one has to do is look at the setups of our favorite players and we can see they have MID lever KL's for the C6th
Using Bobbe Seymour as an example is also an oddity as his primary Push Pull had something like 8 levers. He did things sometimes just to show it can be done .
Placing mid levers for C6th is about ergonomics, what levers are used and are most comfortable to use with Peds 5 and 6. Thats why we have 2 or 3 placed directly above peds 5 and 6.
As Doug J once said to me, if we are exerting too much energy trying to GET to the music we will probably never get there. He went on to say something like this, use as little physical energy as possible so you can concentrate on the music. That makes perfect sense to me !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Apr 2018 7:39 am
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I also switch between necks in a song once in a while. I can get my left knee out of my left knee E9 cluster and move it into my C6 cluster within a second or two. No need to load up my left knee levers and make them stiffer. I had pedal 7 on my RKR, the same lever as my E9 1st and 2nd string raises, and 6th string lower. It was so stiff I thought the guitar would fly across the stage.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2018 8:34 am
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| All 6 of the knee levers on my old Dekley work both necks. I use to say that the heavy action didn't bother me, but now that I split up the left knee duties on my new Infinity, the Dekley feels like a Pilates machine... |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2018 10:34 am
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| Ken Pippus wrote: |
| I believe Herby had all levers working both necks. |
In that picture of Herby, there's a lever above his right knee. I'd guess it's a lever for the neck he's not playing, folded up to be out of the way. If it were instead a vertical for the right knee, that would be a very unusual choice.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| I will agree that the most-used pedals belong near the center of the guitar. That's one reason I've stayed with and recommended the Day setup... but to each his own. |
I agree with that ergonomic preference. But--while I make no argument with regard to the Emmons/Day debate--in my case, my ABC pedals are Emmons but I have a "zero" pedal (it raises 6 to A#) as the first pedal on the left, which puts the A & B pedals in the same ergonomic position as the Day setup. |
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Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2018 2:17 pm
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Tony,
It may be unusual, but I’m never using my right leg for pedals while using the left knee lever. I have no problem using my left leg to hit all my C6 pedals while using it for the LKR knee lever.
As far as the instrument being able to accommodate both neck pulls concurrently using knee levers, yes, most can handle it if they have the obvious hardware.
The issue for me is how easily they can accommodate the changes. I think the person doing the set up is a big part of the equation.
A few years back I bought the most beautiful new steel I’d ever seen. It was setup by the builder, a one man operation. It was the hot guitar of the moment, and still popular today.
I needed four pulls, two each neck on RKR. Yes, it could do it, but It took way too much pressure to make the pull. Broke my heart, but had to sell it. Couldn’t comfortably play it.
So...just because it can make all the pulls, doesnt always mean it will do so with a reasonable amount of effort. I learned that the hard way. |
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