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Topic: One Device To Simulate B3 Tones |
Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 3:43 pm |
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I realize there is a search function. I used it and read many pages of information. However, I came to no solid conclusion because there are multiple questions regarding the what, how and experiences with the multitude of available products. Also, some people evolved their positions on "what's the best" over time.
So, here are my questions:
I want to play my PSG and sound very much like a Hammond B3 organ, with a Leslie cabinet, what do I need to buy? Is there ONE device that will do this? Can anyone give recorded examples of their successful usage of a device they prefer? Do I need a combination of devices? Am I asking the right questions?
Any help is appreciated.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 8:32 pm B3
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If you find a great one, I wanna know too. It takes me 3 pedals. Compressor, EHX B9, and Strymon Lex. But...man....it's good with those three.
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 5:30 am
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I’m with Nathan. Except I prefer the C9 over the B9. (Less key click)
The Lex can be controlled with a separate footswitch for Leslie speed. Very handy.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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robert kramer
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 9:04 am
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| Nathan - Could you possible share your compressor settings and where you run all 3 effects re: the volume pedal? |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 9:46 am
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Sure man, I’ll take a picture but it’ll have to be next Wednesday as my pedalboard is at the rehearsal space. From memory - I use an origin effects slide rig (way overkill, but great pedal) with both compression knobs dimed and the dry in up all the way as well. It lets me have mega sustain (like a organ, right?), but keeps the attack of the note so I can hear the click of the organ. The next is the EHX B9. I like the “rock†organ setting with the dry off and the wet 1/4 way up. The modulation off (don’t like it at all) and the click about 3/4 up. I like the click! The strymon lex is harder to describe because it has 4 (or 5?) knobs and they each have secondary functions, but I know I turn the drive off (unless I wanna sound like deep purple) and the fast speed at about 1/3 up. I post a pick on Thursday if you’re still interested. Of course, your tastes may differ and we all play different gear, so your mileage may vary.
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 9:50 am
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I run all before the volume pedal. Lil Izzy then Compressor into B9 into the Lex then volume pedal and out to my delay and amp
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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robert kramer
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 12:42 pm
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Nathan - One more question: how do you set the compressor? I have the B-9 and Lester G but am also looking for a more compact set-up.
I also have and have tried this one device set-up for B-3 sounds.
Guitar (1/4") > Apogee 96K (USB/Lightning Cable) > iPad with these 2 iOS apps: (1) Jam Origin Midi Guitar (2) Yonac Galileo Organ > iPad speaker jack out 3.5 to 1/4" adapter > guitar amp.
It sounds just like a B-3 and there is an extensive menu of jazz organ sounds - however the latency on the iPad is too much for me. My next step is a MacBook Pro with the corresponding OS apps which will hopefully decrease the latency.
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/jam
https://www.jamorigin.com/
http://www.yonac.com/galileo/ |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2018 3:29 pm
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Lots of good conversation here!
I have a B9 pedal and one of the Boss Rotary Ensemble pedals. They are ok together.
Is the Strymon Lex better than the Boss? What about the other stuff on the market?
The C9 and Lester G look interesting as a pair?
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 4:27 am
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About the compressor:
Again...I'm no expert. With the compressor I like to run maximum compression because that B9 pedal (probably the C9 too, never tried it) cuts off dramatically when the input drops, but if your compressor pedal doesn't have a blend knob -where the dry signal can come back in - you loose the click sound that is such a big part of the B3 sound, IMHO. I've also tried the EHX B9 pedal after the volume pedal, but because it is so picky about input signal, I didn't like the results.
About using the computer for effects:
Thanks for the info! I've often wondered about that. This type of effect is apparently very difficult to achieve without a lot of processing power. The B9 pedal and the Strymon Lex both take quite a lot of juice to run them. I tried to run a freebie version of, I think it was called, melodyne years ago? But I didn't have a fast enough computer. As you found on the tablet - latency was the issue. Let us know about your experience with a MacBook. OK?
About other brands of effects:
I really can't say. I've never tried the Boss rotary or the lester. I tend to use what I can find second hand at my local music shop or what I can trade for. I do really like the combination that I have though!
--Here is an awesome Youtube show about rotary pedals. Fun show, lots of info. But, alas, no steel guitar!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aXOKHp5L4
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 7:37 am
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I am gigging with a C9.
It is a great sound to go to when the guitar play wants to do some B-bender stuff.
Many songs sound better with a lil B3 sound in there, and Steel is the go-to instrument.
I have a Noon-2pm gig today I will use it on some songs. This band does Hush by Deep Purple  |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 7:48 am
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I have the boss rotary and it will take a cheap expression pedal $25-$30 that will control speed.
When I kick the B9 on I roll the tone control back pretty far.
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 10:46 am
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What's the device?
It sounds like a Leslie.
All I get is the cover picture from a Curly Chalker album.
Erv |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 11:25 am
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I'm sure it's a Leslie. The first Leslie effect I know of is the Maestro ps-1a phase shifter which probably wasn't made til after that record came out.
The cool thing about that pedal other than the awesome sound it has is that when you switch speeds it actually ramps up and down like a Leslie does. |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 11:54 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
What's the device?
It sounds like a Leslie.
All I get is the cover picture from a Curly Chalker album.
Erv |
I always thought Curly used a Fender Vibratone Leslie, but the album was released in 1966 and from what I can find, the Vibratone didn't come out until 1967. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 12:00 pm
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Many years ago Tom Bradshaw sold a device called The Junior for this effect. That may be what Curls was using there, I don't know.
I've heard some really great B3 sounds from steel players. Back in the 90's Lee Brothers had one of the best I heard. I don't know what he was using however...maybe the H&K Rotosphere, but that's just a guess.
I'm old school. I think the old Boss units had the best comprehensive units that don't require other devices. Well, save a momentary switch for ramping and use as a brake.
What I have are the older 90's SE70 and SX700 Boss multi-fx units that have Rotary effects blocks. These have so many programmable parameters which include horn and rotor speeds, ramp times, panning, eq, etc. I think about 25 things altogether plus ways to sim mic placement etc.
With these, you can get pretty deep if you have some understanding of the rotary speaker deal, PLUS the sounds of the Hammond drawbar organs often missing with bare Leslie sims but a must for convincing B3 mimicry. You have to know what you want it do though and spend time building and tweaking all the parameters as the programmed generic sounds are only basic.
Of course these units are no longer made or supported and I don't know of anything similar currently.
The 3rd thing being thinking about how an organ is played. Swipes, stabs, squabble etc. the high sustained note. None of these things are possible to duplicate on a stringed instrument and a real organist is probably gonna poke fun at your attempts, but you can get close enough in a club with a bunch of drunks.
I'm not up on the latest EH units, but I have used the Boss RT20. I thought it was pretty close to my rack units when I used it, but the youtube demos I found by guitar players leave me flat and unable to recommend those. They're all obsessed with grit and overdriven sounds which are a part of the sound, but the clean doppler effect is what most steel players are looking for.
I don't have any recorded examples of my units to offer however.
Edit: I defer to Jim Smith et al concerning Chalker. Plus the fact that I don't believe the Junior was available either at that early date.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 7 Apr 2018 12:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 12:02 pm
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| Jim Smith wrote: |
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
What's the device?
It sounds like a Leslie.
All I get is the cover picture from a Curly Chalker album.
Erv |
I always thought Curly used a Fender Vibratone Leslie, but the album was released in 1966 and from what I can find, the Vibratone didn't come out until 1967. |
Maybe it was a prototype?
Again, some fine conversation here!
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 12:43 pm
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| Rick Abbott wrote: |
Lots of good conversation here!
I have a B9 pedal and one of the Boss Rotary Ensemble pedals. They are ok together.
Is the Strymon Lex better than the Boss? What about the other stuff on the market?
The C9 and Lester G look interesting as a pair? |
I tried them both and wound up getting the Strymon Lex which I like a lot. I just liked the sound better. It also has a smaller footprint than the Boss. The Boss has a wild display, though, and the controls are probably easier to use since Strymon is into putting different functions on the same knob.
Volume pedal is helpful for an organ sound -- slap on the leslie and do some gutting and you can get some cool and cheesy sounds. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 1:27 pm
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I don't own one yet, but someday will spring for the Neo Ventilator II. In the youtube videos I've heard comparing Leslie simulators, it's the winner by a decent margin. Anyone using that with PSG? The smaller Mini Vent lacks the expression pedal jack, so you can't ramp up and down with it. To me, that's half the vital sound!
Nathan, thanks for the tips on use of a compressor!
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Nathan Guilford
From:
Oklahoma City
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 3:13 pm lex
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John and Jim:
I don't know if the boss and lester have it but the Strymon Lex has an expression jack that can be configured to accept a switch that when activated will ramp up or down the speed (in addition to the button on the pedal). I built a small switch that clips to the leg of my steel from a tele pickup selector switch. Now changing speed can be accomplished by my right hand. Like a real Leslie half moon switch on an organ! The pedal allows you to program the speed of the ramp up/down as well.
John: I agree with you about the Neo Ventilator. Like you I've only ever seen them on Youtube, but sound amazing. (But don't all effects pedals sound amazing on Youtube?!)
As you can tell, one can really fall pretty far down this rabbit hole. In the end sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't be easier just to buy a keyboard and play it instead.
_________________
'02 Carter S-12 uni
‘76 MSA D-12
www.toothbrushers.com |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 4:07 pm
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I think expecting one pedal to give you instant "real" B3 + Leslie is perhaps asking too much.
The original Leslie + B3 sound was the drawbar-controlled tone-wheel B3 with key-click into a separate amp into a separate Leslie speaker, which had mechanical stuff going on, including real Doppler effect and the motor speedup and slowdown. I guess someone might, at some point, make a single pedal that stages all that stuff serially, but I don't know of anything that does it now. I think separate pedals that give a good tone-wheel with key-click B3 sound into a separate pedal that does a good Leslie emulation is probably the state-of-the-art right now. Only thing I've heard that does it reasonably, anyway. And a helluvalot lighter than hauling around a B3 and Leslie, Lord knows I helped haul one around enough times.
Personally, I've never even heard a keyboard player play something that really nails the B3-into-Leslie sound with anything but a real percussion Hammond (e.g., B3, C3, A100, etc.) into a real Leslie. When I hear someone do a high-end Nord into an amp, it can sound very good, but not like the real deal. Works fine in a live band mix, but there's something about the real deal into a whirlygig moving some air.
Most of the time, when I hear a guitar player do B3-into-Leslie imitations, the limitation is (IMO) generally in the way they play, not the equipment. I agree on the compressor. I play quite a bit of slide guitar, I think I need to invest in one of the Origin Effects Slide Rigs. I use two compressors for slide sometimes, it might not make that much difference. But I agree that getting that contant volume envelope is important for really nailing the B3 sound. I also want max key-click.
The best I ever got doing guitar-emulated B3-into-Leslie sims was (20+ years ago) putting a Roland synth pickup on my Strat, and running it into that period's Roland synth B3 sim => compressors => real Leslie 18. It shook up the band leader to the point where he finally told me it looked so weird that I should stop bringing it. People would be craning their necks looking around for the organ. But the B9 pedal seems to cover what that synth did, polyphonically, now. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Apr 2018 8:23 pm
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Yes well, I tend to go overboard on these things. There's no reason one can't be satisfied with a simple leslie sim through a guitar sound as many do, if that pleases.
Another option would be the simple midi converter Sonuus G2m Version 3 guitar box into an older synth module like the Alesis, Yamaha etc.
I'll put that info in another topic so as not to sully this one though. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 8 Apr 2018 8:32 am
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Jerry...
The Junior was a real badass unit, especially for that time period. I still have some live recordings that I used it on, and still amazed at the sound. Mine finally died after PEI went under. I have been hoping to find one for years.
I was using a B9 for a while, but it was too hard to control, even with a compressor in front of it. I fed the B9 into my Tech 21 RotoChoir. I got rid of the B9 and am back to just the RotoChoir. It's a lot easier to control, and sounds convincing enough, although not
exactly like a B3.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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