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Topic: Effects or Not? |
Skip Ellis
From:
Bradenton, Fl USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 1:52 pm |
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I don't want to start something but after reading a thread about some players and their efforts to hook up all these elaborate pedal boards got me to thinking. I only use reverb on my steel, either built into the amp or a pedal where I can reach it and I don't feel the need to turn my steel into a synthesizer or special effects machine. I learned to play steel because I really like the sound of the instrument - I really don't want to disguise it as something else. I'm a 'clean freak' - even my guitar amp has to be squeaky clean. I don't want to pay a bunch of money for an instrument, whether it be a six string guitar or lap steel or pedal steel and then add little boxes to make it sound like it or the amp is about ready to come apart at the seams. I will admit to trying the steel guitar E-bow for a while back in the day but didn't really care for it. Maybe I'm just getting old - a steel should sound like Buddy Emmons backing Ray Price.
_________________
2013 Brook Torridge, 2014 Martin 000-18, two homebrew Teles, Evans RE200 amp, Quilter 101R head, understanding wife of 45 years. 'Steeless' at the moment but looking...... |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 3:25 pm
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I use phaser on a few retro numbers, distortion on some classic rock, and flange on some 80’s hits plus I use a splash of “hall reverb†and some 300 milliseconds delay on slow ballads. Ex: Ocean front property (George Strait) gets the flange and delay and reverb but it’s gentle, but I do like plush schmooz effects tones, however you don’t want it set too deep to where it’s wallowing around though!!
Everything else is plain vanilla steel guitar with Hall verb 90% of the time.
I got no problem with a few effects as long as it’s sparingly applied and used. Cheers Skip.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy.
Last edited by Larry Bressington on 4 Apr 2018 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 3:37 pm
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I use a variety of the flavors directly available out of my Quilter Mach 2, including "Clean channel". The only thing that's always on is reverb. (I think that's the Quilter's proper name, I can't see it from here.) We play everything from Merle to Pink Floyd, from the Eagles to the Rolling Stones. Beatles. Bob Seger. Santana. Clapton. Doors. The old geezers at the VFW like it all. I'm the only "lead" guitar we've got, so I try to sound appropriate to the song. I've got a fuzz box but I'm not using it. I'm giving it some thought; I can kick an effects channel in or out with the Quilter pedal, so it would be out of the way and easy, but I haven't decided I want that sound.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jon Irsik
From:
Wichita, KS USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 3:48 pm
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I use reverb and a bit of delay to sweeten things up. I’ve used overdrive/distortion in the past and probably will again, if the tune calls for it.
I love the traditional sound of a pedal steel, been listening to a Lloyd Green CD at work all day today. I also enjoy Robert Randolph and it was fascinating to meet Russ Pahl in Dallas and see his set up. I’ve heard he’s one of the most in-demand session steel players in Nashvegas these days and he does quite a bit with delays and other effects. I play a lot of contemporary worship music and some of the artists, like All Sons And Daughters, utilize heavily effected pedal steel.
Whatever fits the song.
Last edited by Jon Irsik on 5 Apr 2018 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 4:11 pm
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Me to Skip! The reverb on the amp...that’s it! I love the tone I’m getting, with the equipment listed in my signature... so no need to add any stompboxes/processors.
_________________
“TONESNOB†|
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 4:45 pm
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Different stropes for different fopes. I use EFX occasionally. But other than reverb, not in everything I do. Often, I'll just pick a stomp to take on a particular gig, and use it in one or two songs.  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 7:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| a steel should sound like Buddy Emmons backing Ray Price. |
To be clear - that's an opinion that's worded like fact.
And one I completely agree with - for you.
But it would be ridiculous for players that don't play that style of country - or players like me that don't really play country at all. Buddy Emmons wouldn't even agree with it.
?The comments regarding six-string aren't even relevant unless the point is to...well, I can't even think of one that is relevant.
Many pedal steel players seem to still be stuck in a one-dimensional world where the instrument's tone and usage must be defined only within a singular style - and some a singular tone within that style. IMO it's fine as a personal opinion (all "opinions" are fine. At least they *should* be), but absurd as a statement of "how the instrument should be used".
It's an awfully big musical world out there, and the pedal steel is a "musical instrument" perfectly usable in a variety of musical styles. Effects of ALL types work very well with the instrument and there are a limitless number of interesting and creative sounds available.
FWIW I have 8 pedals mounted on my steel underneath the apron for easy access.
No reverb.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Chris Bauer
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2018 7:45 pm
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I love the sound of traditional steel guitar with maybe just some echo or amp reverb. Dry even, at times.
However I also like variety and I love being able to pay my bills so I have a large array of pedals on hand to suit whatever the music I'm playing calls for.
I'm rarely asked to sound like another instrument, though. I'm hired to make a pedal steel sound like a pedal steel but sonically fitting the context of a wide range of music. Altering the sound - sometimes a little and sometimes a lot - is what makes that possible and pedals and a variety of amps and pre-amps, in turn, are what makes that possible. |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 12:21 am
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I love effects on steel guitar. Both pedal & non pedal. The steel guitar in the right hands of a gifted player with insight, and musical imagination, has no boundaries. Great traditional players like Curly Chalker, Buddy Emmons, the late Bob White who used phase shifter on his "Steel Trek" LP. Also Julian Tharpe used effects on his Jet Age album. Just to name a couple. I'm sure they also liked the "traditional" steel guitar sound. Buddy Emmons' ebow string effect use was masterful. Buddy had more effects and gadgets then most standard 6 string lead guitarist, both stomp box and rack. Peavey even put a string effect in the Session 500 steel guitar amp.
Jeff Newman often spoke about how he was in a few ways dissatisfied that the steel guitar hasn't ventured out in different directions, and made use of todays electronic advancements, and how he thought it actually hampered the instruments growth. And today, i still think he was right back then. Even though he sure caught slack for saying it. Tradition is fine, i love it, but don't limit the instrument by your refusing to be open to new directions. VIVA Robert Randolph
Zane King's tasty use of overdrive.
https://youtu.be/H9YCmsgE2uU
Just my own personal outlook on the subject. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 1:20 am
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This reminds me of the old country music VS what is today called country music, arguments. Like the article i link to at the bottom of my post, i also have a neighbor who believes that no electrified instruments or drums should have ever been allowed on the Grand Ole Opry stage. The steel guitar, and fiddle are the instruments least heard on todays so called country music recordings and in country concerts. It's unacceptable, especially when the steel guitar was at one time the prominent instrument, with Webb Pierces' "Slowly". Sad indeed. Not pointing fingers. This article written back in 2012 has it pretty close. Tradition is nice...but too much tradition can be a disservice to our instrument and music.
https://www.savingcountrymusic.com/progress-vs-traditionalism-in-country-music/ |
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Skip Ellis
From:
Bradenton, Fl USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 5:12 am
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Of course, it's all opinion - I was merely putting out what's important to ME and starting a discussion but I don't think those of us who don't use effects should be belittled because of it, which is the way some of the above posts seemed to lean. They seem to suggest that we (the no effects guys) are less than adequate musicians because we don't jump on whatever is 'the next big' thing. Most of the steel playing work that I've gotten in the last 40 years has been because I played steel guitar and those doing the hiring wanted steel guitar. Plus, as I said, I like the sound of pure steel guitar. I'm not an experimenter - I do what brings in the $$$ and I get called because of that. To, me, we should not be trying to take the place of a lead guitar, organ, synth...whatever. YMMV.
_________________
2013 Brook Torridge, 2014 Martin 000-18, two homebrew Teles, Evans RE200 amp, Quilter 101R head, understanding wife of 45 years. 'Steeless' at the moment but looking...... |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 7:01 am
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Rarely use anything whatsoever on the pedal steel, reverb included. Like others have opined, I want it to sound like a pedal steel, and nothing else.
Lap steel is an entirely different story, however. Currently, I'm running two separate instruments that occupy a double Deluxe34 stand into a Morley ABY, then a Sarno Earth Drive, into Tommy Bradshaw's MXR reso simulator, to an old Sho-Bud volume pedal. From the VP, the signal progresses into a BOSS RT-20, a Sole-Mate spring reverb, and finally a cheap Joyo delay pedal before terminating at the amp. Can approximate anything from Allman to Auldridge, from Byrd and Booker T. to the Yardbirds and Zappa with this setup.
But for my two old pedal steels, I run 'em straight, with only a volume pedal between the instrument and the amplifier. That's the sound that got me interested in the first place, and that's still the sound that I want to emulate. |
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Franklin
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 7:45 am
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Hi Skip,
What a great thread...I do love the 60's tone which is probably my favorite period in all forms of music. The 60's also ushered in echo, distortion, leslie sounds, phase, and chorus etc..Personally, I use it all when the gig calls for it......I will say its because of the recorded tones he got in the 60's that Buddy started using compression, delay pedals, and reverb pedals on his live gigs. I use a delay all the time and have since the 70's..Al Pachuki an engineer from that Owen Bradley period taught me how to set a delay pedal at 200m to 300m with one repeat at about a 1/3 of the original notes volume so as to feel its enhancement without ever hearing the repeat....This trick is done to mimic the recorded sounds from the 60's and when two amps came into vogue that really created a cleaner and fatter tone.
Some may be interested in this geeky stuff. The Ray Price or 60's era: "we are not just hearing a steel and amp on the vinyl"...Before those recordings were mixed the mixer would add a high end compression, or a limiter and sometimes both due to volume dynamics from players on all instruments. EQ enhancement was added to overcome overtones and to clean up instrument tracks for a more defined instrument separation in the mixing phase. EQ is also used to overcome a bad sounding room, and my favorite from that time period was echo chambers which is how Buddy, Lloyd, Drake Weldon and Hal got those buttery reverb sounds. Chamber sounds are impossible to get from spring reverbs...That is my reason for always using a delay pedal in live situations.....
Paul |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 7:57 am
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There probably aren’t too many SGF members here that don’t like the sound of a pedal steel straight into a clean amp with a touch of verb.
There are also probably precious few of us who are playing 100% straight classic country, or folky rock music, or straight ahead jazz. So what does the music we’re playing call for? Does the straight steel stick out like Mr. Clean in a motorcycle gang? Throw some dirt on it.
If the music is funky, freaky, spacey, angry, free-form, or otherwise off the beaten path of what is considered “normal†for steel, why not experiment with the 35 different effects in your Boss Gt-100? Or combine 3 or 4 of them for a unique sound, which might sound like crap in some other context? It does not make you less of a virtuoso. It does make you more of a good “groupistâ€, getting with the program.
“Steel is not a lead guitarâ€.....Really? Even Herb Remington used a wah-wah. |
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Skip Ellis
From:
Bradenton, Fl USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 8:48 am
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Fred, I just don't get myself in a situation where I have to play 'freaky'. I prefer to play classic country (I learned my first guitar chords out of an Ernest Tubb songbook) and don't really get involved with folks who don't want to do the same. I've also made a 'mini' career of playing "Always....Patsy Cline" and "Best Little Whorehouse In Texas" in various theaters and they hire me because I play a steel that sounds like a steel.
Franklin, thanks for the insight about delay. I generally use a cheapo Behringer DR400 which is, basically, the same as an RV-3 on a budget and it works pretty well but you pretty much get what they give you as far as settings if you want reverb and delay at the same time. I like a little delay, I guess, because I came up playing a lot of Chet stuff. I'm thinking of going to separate delay and reverb pedals to have better control. I've never been comfortable using compression live as I try to control things with my hands and VP - I guess it's good for evening things out, though. Could you give us an idea of the setup you used for the George Jones 50th Anniversary TV show - your tone was great - I really enjoyed it.
_________________
2013 Brook Torridge, 2014 Martin 000-18, two homebrew Teles, Evans RE200 amp, Quilter 101R head, understanding wife of 45 years. 'Steeless' at the moment but looking...... |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 10:56 am
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It's great to have Mr Paul Franklin chime in on these addictive threads, and give us some insight to what goes on behind the scenes, a lot of things we don't know or hear on records, especially the processing and mastering department about deleting overtones and compression of high end etc. I think it also lends to another topic about getting 'That Tone' that beautiful, compressed, hi-fi tone that we have become so used to pounding in our heads from radio play.
I have always tried to get close though, as i do run Compression and also EQ, a lot of added and subtracted frequencies, so i'm a bit of processor junkie and i like to have access to many possibilities. I did play 4 hours at a gig a while back straight into a NV400, twas fun too, but i missed the old flange and a few others on a song or two.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 11:09 am
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Thanks, Paul.
Yer classin’ da joint up.
John |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 11:41 am
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IMO, effects with steel guitar are kinda like make up on woman's face - only a hint of make up is needed to enhance her natural beauty.
Also, regarding the use of multiple effects, simultaneously: Like musicians in an ensemble, the more musicians, the more subtly musician actually plays, to prevent a cluttered sound. With effects, the more that are used the more subtle each effect should be.
Regarding my personal preference - I use the reverb in the amp and on a very rare occasion, a vintage Jordan Electronics "Bosstone". I set the "Bosstone", when turned on, so there is no volume increase and only the most subtle distortion.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
_________________
Steelin' for Jesus |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 12:29 pm
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| Quote: |
| They seem to suggest that we (the no effects guys) are less than adequate musicians because we don't jump on whatever is 'the next big' thing. |
Hummm..i couldn't find reference to that. I'll read it over again. But a new direction in music, putting thousands out of work, is hardly "the next big' thing"
Peace |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 3:06 pm
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| Skip Ellis wrote: |
| Of course, it's all opinion - I was merely putting out what's important to ME and starting a discussion but I don't think those of us who don't use effects should be belittled because of it, which is the way some of the above posts seemed to lean. They seem to suggest that we (the no effects guys) are less than adequate musicians because we don't jump on whatever is 'the next big' thing. Most of the steel playing work that I've gotten in the last 40 years has been because I played steel guitar and those doing the hiring wanted steel guitar. Plus, as I said, I like the sound of pure steel guitar. I'm not an experimenter - I do what brings in the $$$ and I get called because of that. To, me, we should not be trying to take the place of a lead guitar, organ, synth...whatever. YMMV. |
It didn't seem to me like anybody put you down for not using effects. There is no best music, there is no right way. It's like how we tell stories to one another, and no two of us have the same story.
I go pay to listen to philharmonic orchestras, too. Cello concerts. You gave an opinion, others gave theirs. It's like when people talk about "The greatest guitar player ever." Geeze, I don't even agree with myself on that one.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 3:42 pm
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| Quote: |
| but I don't think those of us who don't use effects should be belittled because of it, which is the way some of the above posts seemed to lean. |
I certainly wasn't saying anything like that.
Like Paul, I use delay instead of reverb 90% of the time. Typical amplifier spring reverb only works on the high frequencies (lows would cause weird spring vibration and "washout", as you discover turning it up too high), with a harshness I don't care for. I generally use one...sometimes two...analog delay units; settings are very subtle & when I use two they are set for different repeats and time.
The only spring unit I use is an old Fender outboard tube unit that plugs into the front of the amp - it's designed and voiced differently.
I do not see steel guitar with effects as "taking the place of" anything. Effects don't have anything to do with "instrument substitution" unless you use an organ emulator, guitar synth etc. Those are not "effects" - they're "emulators", "samplers", "synthesizers" and such. Different animals.
Effects are "sound altering" devices. An envelope generator - one of my favorites, as it was for Sneaky Pete - doesn't turn a steel guitar into any other instrument any more than it changes an electric guitar , electric piano or electric garbage can lid into something else. Used in a subtle way it creates a sweet "frequency-opening" sound. Still a pedal steel
And the effect is - in more familiar terms - a "doo-wah". A "generally acceptable" effect used on steel guitar for years. As have the numerous steel-specific "fuzz" boxes.
Even a volume pedal is an effects pedal. 
Sure, some effects can be used to "sound like" other instruments, like using a fuzz for a cello or violin-type sound. But I don't know of any steel players that consistently use effects to try to "be another instrument".
FWIW some examples - the effects I have available are mostly used in subtle ways (I don't have all these set up at once):
To warm or thicken the sound (overdrive, distortion, fuzz - all different effects!), alter the frequency response (envelope generator/"auto wah"/"doo-wah", phase shifter, chorus, flanger, Leslie, vibrato,, and the blend control for my two pickups), create "space" or movement (phase shifter etc, tremolo, auto-pan), add frequencies (octave, harmonizer) and control volume and/or attack (volume pedal, compressor, limiter, clean boost).
Oddly enough, besides not using reverb I also rarely use a volume pedal!
The point is - if you heard my steel it would sound exactly like a pedal steel guitar - with a little "seasoning". Over-effected instruments of ANY type are, to me, like dumping cayenne pepper into food.
But completely "dry" steel guitar can be the tonal equivalent of boiled beef, and a little...."LITTLE"...seasoning" can go a long way.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 3:59 pm
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On what i hope is a more light hearted side of things. I remember a few years ago being called by a band with younger musicians early 20's to late 30's age group. They played a Chicago song titled "Color My World", a great song. The keyboard player was excellent, as was the whole band really. The piano did 99% of that song, then from out of nowhere they looked at me to take a melody break mid song. I of course played it on C6th using a combination of chords, and single note scales. Turned out great (even though they thought this old guy was gonna whine it like two cats fighting in an alley at midnight). Then to test my patience they did a Santana song called "Black Magic Woman". I was offered a lead, i stepped on my Sarno Earth Drive, and my Ohmless Yara Softswitch Optical Compressor and i hung with the guitar player to the end, even doing twin guitar & steel harmony sustain. I had been playing those songs on guitar for years and thank goodness i was familiar with both songs. I had one of the most enjoyable evenings playing that i can remember. During the break they commented on how they all had a different opinion of pedal steel from there on out. I walked away feeling good about the steel guitar, it's capabilities, and the meeger contribution i was able to make. Not trying to change anyones mind about their music, far be it from me. As the Curly Chalker album title says, we now have "More Ways To Play"....Carry On.
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 4:47 pm Effects
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It depends on what I am playing what effect I use. I am playing with a group that plays classic country. All I use for effects is my reverb on my NV112 and little delay with a Hilton Delay Pedal. The only other effect I use is a Boss EQ pedal to imitate a DoBro effect. It's a cheap and effective way to get a DoBro sound. My reverb is set about 30 to 40% and my delay is set for 1 repeat about a half a second apart. The second repeat is set on the soft side. I may tweak the reverb more or less for a up tempo or slow tempo. Back in the 90's I was playing in groups that did top 10 and 40 country. Back then I was using delay, reverb, phase shift pedal, stereo chorus driving two NV400's and over drive. Moved up to a Peavey Profex II with the Newman presets. Had to have a competitive tone back then if you wanted to work. I do enjoy the classic country sounds, clean and simple. Comes with getting old!!!! "That's My Story And I'm Sticking To It" Great to hear from Mr. Paul Franklin!!! Hey Paul!!! You ever been to White Castle on Fort Street in Lincoln Park? I know you would have ate there when you were a kid!!!! 12 cents each!!!!
Last edited by Kevin Fix on 9 Apr 2018 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2018 5:43 pm
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You know the great thing about effects boxes of any kind?
You can turn them off and NOT use them, when you don't want.
But if you don't have them and that one time comes along that you really need it? You're screwed.
Everybody digs different things, and that's great.......but I think it's funny that a guy dismisses a pretty common element of music making as "freaky", "ready to come apart at the seams" or "a synthesizer or special effects machine", then turns around says "Don't belittle me for not using effects!"
Pot. Kettle. Black.
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