Beginner question about 6 vs. 8 string

Jay Gedeon · From: California, USA

I am wanting to learn western swing and am not sure if I need a 6 or 8 string. I have played guitar for 50+ years so I understand some theory. I just don't want to spend time learning on a 6 string only to find out I need to relearn on an 8 string.
Also, I don't know if scale length and string spacing is important or not at this point. Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks.

G Strout · From: Carabelle, Florida

Jay, I would start with a 6 string.
1. They are easy to find and less expensive than an 8
2. There is more instructional material available for a 6 string.
When you get the basics down, bar control, forward and reverse slants, grips,chords scales etc then switching over to an 8 will be very easy. Everything you learned on 6 will transfer to an 8. Not much to relearn just 2 more stings that will compliment and extend the tuning you are using.
C6 is an excellent tuning to start with as it is very popular and there is a LOT of instructional material available for that tuning. A6 is a popular tuning for Western Swing and is basically the same as a C6, so once you get the feel for playing a steel it is a VERY easy switch over from C6 to A6. As to scale length I would recommend nothing smaller than 22 1/2". Just my thoughts
By the way I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forum!!
Gary

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Excellent advice!
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Jeff Mead · From: London, England

A 6 stringer is great to learn on and, if you pick a nice one, will serve you well for many years.

Although I have since bought and play 8 string double, triple and quad neck quitars, my very first 6 stringer (A
vintage Gibson BR-9 that can still be found for around $300) still gets plenty of use and usually accompanies me to any gig, jam or recording session where I'm not booked primarily as a steel player "just in case" and I usually find a couple of songs or so to use it on.

As has been said, an 8 string tuning is usually an extension of the 6 string one so everything you learn on 6 strings will apply to 8 - nothing to unlearn.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I found it a LOT easier to adapt from guitar to lap-style, fretless playing on a 6 string - visually, it is much easier to not get lost on where your fingers are. I started on 6 (in C6), moved to 8, and pretty quickly went back to 6...and made much faster progress. There is so much to learn (message from G Strout re skills) that you just don't need more strings to make it harder...IMHO, of course.
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David M Brown · From: California, USA

Bill McCloskey · Posted 1 Apr 2018 12:34 pm

If you want to play western swing, get an 8 string. I don't see any point in getting a six string. If Hawaiian was your thing (or rock, blues for that matter) I'd say sure, go with the 6 string. Western Swing: you might was well get used to the 8 stings now.

David M Brown · From: California, USA

G Strout · From: Carabelle, Florida

Jay,
I would start with the 6 stringer.... as I have previously mentioned.... the amount of instructional material that is available for 6 string C6 is immense. Being that you are are coming from a guitar background, getting started would be much easier and (I think) you would relate to the 6 string much faster than if you started on 8.
As I posted before... after you get the basics down.... then make your switch. To an 8 or to A6.
Since you mentioned that you have been playing 50+ years on a 6 string "armpit" guitar you would likely "slide" into this (no pun intended) a lot easier on a 6 string than starting with a 8 string.
It takes awhile to wrap your head around this stuff coming from a regular guitar. There are many people on here who have made the switch and you will find this forum to be a wealth of information.
Good Luck.
Gary
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Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Apr 2018 7:41 am

" I tried to make the jump from 6- to 8-string (had a beautiful RAM Speakeasy and sold it), but I just could not come to grips with those extra two strings. "

To me that is an argument for just going to 8 strings. If you started with 8 strings, you wouldn't have to make the jump to anything. While there is certainly exceptions, I think you would be hard put to find someone playing western swing today who plays with 6 strings. Not that they don't exist, but the majority play 8 strings for a reason.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Bill-
...and you are doing the Alkire Eharp now...perhaps some of us just don't have quite the same ability to make those leaps, and we get there faster if we take slightly smaller steps...I guess we don't know if the OP is able to make that leap or not, and our experience suggests starting with 6...

If he buys used, on the forum, he'll get a good instrument that he can resell for about what pays for it...or keep for a different tuning or travel guitar, when (and if) he jumps to 8 strings.

I guess he could just get an 8 and take two strings off, but we all know that, having an 8, it would be really tempting to just leave them on...
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Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Apr 2018 9:08 am

I think the time it takes to get good on a steel is the same regardless of strings. If someone is interested in playing pedal steel and playing traditional country, would you recommend they start on a 6 string pedal steel?

Certainly the OP can do what he wants but if you are going to spend the time learning and practicing, I'd rather do it on an instrument that is best suited for the music I want to play. And allows me to play the standard repertoire.

David M Brown · From: California, USA

Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Apr 2018 9:42 am

Right and he also said that he doesn't want to learn 6 string if he has to relearn everything for 8 strings. You would definitely have to learn the fretboard over again if you moved to 8 strings. I just don't see the advantage. It is no harder to start on an 8 string than it is to start on a 6 string. And as some have pointed out, those who learned 6 string first had difficulty transitioning to 8 string. so why learn it?

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

What I recommend for a beginner:

Hawaiian or country : 6 string C6

Western Swing : 8 strings A6

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

As somebody who came from guitar to lap steel, started out on 6 strings, and is now playing 8 string lap steel exclusively, in Western Swing (and rockabilly) styles, I agree with Bill & Jean-Paul - if you're starting on lap steel, and want to focus on Western Swing, you might just as well start with 8 strings...
Yes, some original Western Swing was played on 6 strings, but pretty soon, almost all the major players switched to 8; and some kind of 6th tuning (C6 or A6) is most common for Western Swing, and those simply make more sense and are easier to play on 8 strings.
Also, there is pretty much nothing you can transfer from regular guitar playing to lap steel, anyway - totally different picking style, different places where the chords are, different intervals between the strings - it is a new instrument, coming to lap steel as a beginner, it doesn't make a difference whether you played guitar, piano, or slide trombone before, it's a totally new technique to master, so choosing 6 strings just because regular guitar has 6 strings doesn't make sense (would be different if you came, say, from open tuning bottle neck guitar to open tuning blues rock lap steel...)
And while there are a lot more entry-level 6 string lap steels available, there are also quite a few beginner-friendly, affordable 8-string options these days!

Jay Gedeon · From: California, USA

Thanks for all of your replies. Maybe I should have mentioned in my original post that I have a small collection of vintage guitars and amps and have acquired three, six string laps over the years. I've just never gotten serious about playing lap steel until now. I don't own an eight string and that's why I asked which would be better.
Since I posted I've plugged an old Alamo into a Gibson BR-9 (recently refurbished by Skip Simmons) and started learning some YouTube lessons. I am also in the process of researching the names you guys mentioned above. I'd also like to learn some old country as well as stuff like Santo and Johnny's Sleepwalk (which I already play on the "armpit" guitar and Tear Drop which Doug Beaumier knocks out of the park.
For those interested I also have an Epitome lap (not Epiphone) and a National New Yorker which I think needs a new vol. pot. If you have any more thoughts please keep them coming.

Stefan Robertson · From: Hertfordshire, UK

I'm with Bill on this one plus I have to mention that E13 is great for Western swing. Easier to adapt to as a guitar player background.

Eg Key Centres are the same as a guitar fret 3 is G fret 7 is B fret 8 is C and so on if you have a superficial overview which is handy when you need to get out of trouble.

HOWEVER

I wish I started on 12 strings. Yes thats 12 strings as you definitely can transfer over music theory knowledge to lap steel and E13 the Chord intervals are not far away.

Having a 12 string makes sense for me as it means options a plenty with old and modern voicings and no need o retune per song or re-laearn multiple necks/tunings.

ALSO

With 12 strings you can choose to only string up or learn or use 6, then 8 then 10 then 12. But if you know your music theory more options means less compromising moments. Secret to E13 is every chord can be voiced using a triad. Everything else is extra. Sometimes its there sometimes its not. Sometimes the genre uses old time voicings sometimes you need more modern dissonance. its mostly there.

Hope this helps/saves you years of re-tuning/lugging around multiple necks.

Happy playing.
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Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I humbly retract my 6-string advice in the light of advice from those with actual knowledge- I wasnâ€™t doing Western swing ...
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G Strout · From: Carabelle, Florida

I don't take back a thing. Not that I have any actual knowledge.... 50 years of playing. Armpit and steel. Paid off 2 condos and 2 homes.... a multitude of cars and raised a family.... all playing music. Stopped and went part time at 58 y/o. Now retired but still doing a jazz armpit single gig.
Never delivered mail or got involved with computers or IT etc.
Learn the basics Jay, slants, grips,intonation, etc:..... easier on 6 than 8, especially given your 6 string back ground. When you switch..... nothing to relearn..... and given your last post..... no huge cash outlay as you already have 6 string laps.. 8 "ain't" much different than 6 bro. Need help? PM me.
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Nic Neufeld · From: Kansas City, Missouri

Here's a question from another beginner...what is it about Western swing (of which I know precious little) that requires the bass strings of an 8 string in A6 more? Just thinking from my limited perspective, the advantages of 8 strings from a Hawaiian standpoint are often based on having more options in terms of tunings, C13 springing to mind particularly. If you're playing A6 in Western swing, what do you particularly lack on a 6 string? Just lower range, or the low "A" for being able to play octaves or something similar? Or is it more tradition based? Ie., if you're going to play country electric guitar you might as well get used to the Tele instead of the SG, etc.

As always, love learning from you guys.
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Jack Hanson · From: San Luis Valley, USA

I am not entirely convinced that the choice between a 6- or an 8-string instrument (or a 10- or 12- string, for that matter) needs to be an either/or proposition. They share far more similarities than differences, and indeed all of them complement each other to some degree.

Jean-Sebastien raises an excellent point regarding tuning(s). The standard C6 is a great choice for a 6-string instrument. And A6 works great with either 7 or 8 strings, not quite as well with only 6. My personal preference for A6 is a 7-string instrument, with an A on the bottom and an E on the top.

The decision is one that ultimately will be Jay's, and Jay's alone. In light of the fact that he already seems to have the 6-string portion of this equation covered with three separate instruments, I would recommend he just string 'em up and play 'em. And to be on the lookout from now on for a decent 8-string that fits his pocketbook. After all, it's almost impossible to have too many lap steels.

And Jay -- be aware that lots of folks consider the National New Yorker to be on the short list of elite vintage lap steels. It's definitely worth whipping that one into shape. Your Epitome? Well, if it was anything like mine, not so much...

Quite possibly your New Yorker's volume pot merely needs a shot or two of DeoxIT. Even if the pot indeed does need replacement, it's a fairly simple and straightforward operation.

Welcome to the addicting world of lap steel, and good luck!

Todd Clinesmith · From: Lone Rock Free State Oregon

For Western Swing ( which is what the OP is asking about), you should go with an 8 string 6th tuning. All of your hero's played them. Most of them used A6 or C6 for there main tuning. I would say most used A6.

I have been giving lessons to a musical newbie at 70 + years old. We went from 6-8 strings and adding the two extra string has been a challenge. I think if we started on 8, the challenge would not be there. We have had to relearn a lot of songs.

If you start on 6 strings for Western Swing you would have high to low:
E,C,A,G,E,C
You can play a ton of music on 6 string C6. But if, you are listening to records of the Western Swing greats,and trying to emulate there style, you will be missing some things.

If you add two strings for traditional Western Swing it would be the 5 on top and the 6th in the bass:
G,E,C,A,G,E,C,A (C6)
or E,C#,A,F#,E,C#,A,F# (A6)
The 6th in the bass is not as important as the 5 on top, but it is used a lot more than you may think.

The 5 on top is huge for chords of the day. You will hear this in almost all of the greats playing except early Joaquin Murphey. But from the mid 1940's and up, give or take a few years, the 5 on top is there.
If you go A6 you have to have 7 or more strings to emulate the masters.
If the sound you are going for is mid 40's to mid 50's Western Swing you want 8. Can you get by with 6, yes.
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

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