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Topic: That old "D" string on a U-12......it's back! |
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 18 Aug 2005 7:23 am |
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I just got my steel back from BMI after having it totally rebuilt and getting a U-12 setup with 8 FP & 5 KL on the thing. I'd been using a 12 string setup which was like an extended E9th with the D string tuned to C#. After playing my guitar with the regular U-12 set up I've found that I can't live without the D on the 9th string! Although I tune it to C# I raise it to D with a lever and do a lot of moves using it with the B pedal and string 6. I stayed home in my garage shop yesterday and set my steel up like this and I'm now a happy camper again!!
< ^ > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 < >
F# G#
C# D# D E
G# G A
E F# F D#
B A# C# C# C#
G# A A A#
F# G# F
E F# F D#
C# D
B A# C#
G# A
E F D
Have a good 'un......JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 18 Aug 2005 8:40 am
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Jerry-That is a good idea , with the C# on that string then to raise it to a D on the same knee lever that raises to D on the 2nd string. Lots more possibilites , like you have found out.......al 
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 18 Aug 2005 9:12 am
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Thanks Al, I like that C# note for scale work also, just think, with the E's lowered and using the 10th string B as a root you've got the 1,2, & 3 of the scale right in line on strings 10, 9, & 8, then let up on the E lower and you've got the 4, then the 5 comes on the next string, etc. I guess my setup would be along the line of an E6th maybe?...JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 18 August 2005 at 10:13 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2005 9:55 am
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What's wrong with the standard E9th? I like having D as the 9th string, and D# as the second string. They are the most often used notes on those strings. Why change them to C# and then have to use a lever to get what everyone else has?
I guess I don't get it.
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 Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 18 Aug 2005 11:48 am
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| I use the standard 9th string B with a raise to D on my U-12. I also have the 2nd string to C# on this pull. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 22 Aug 2005 5:39 am
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Hey b0b, nothing wrong with the standard E9th at all! That's the standard for good reason and it's wonderful! It's just what a person gets used to! The late Hal Rugg always tuned his 2nd string to C# as does Weldon Myrick and it hasn't hurt their playing at all, in some cases maybe it helps not tuning like everyone else. Less chance of sounding like everyone else. I knew a great steeler in LA years ago (James O'Rafferty) who tuned his 9th string to C# on a D-10. Oh his A pedal he'd raise string 5 to C# like everyone else but he'd lower his 10th string to A. It worked great for him! I love bar movement and it just works better for me like this. I get most of my D#'s by lowering the 4th string or going up two frets and using the A & B pedals. I also love those unisons on string 2 and 9 that I get with the A pedal. For another thing, try this! Tune your 9th string to C# and then lower your 8th string to D#. Think of some of the moves you do when you normally start a run with your 8th string going to the 7th string, to the 6th string, etc. but starting them on the 10th string. I just like it this way and always will....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 22 August 2005 at 06:40 AM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 22 Aug 2005 8:05 am
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| I guess I would call what you have an extended E6,9. Standard E9 has been substantially altered. In the B6 mode, you have lost the low root and the Boowah pedal, and now have a major 7th between the low 6th and middle root. This may work well for your purposes, and certainly covers a lot of notes. But I would hesitate to call it a universal, which is usually taken to mean something that duplicates both standard E9 and standard C6. But in the generic sense of a universal being anything that attempts to do everything on one neck, I guess this qualifies. Maybe you could call it an E6,9/B6,mj7 universal. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 22 August 2005 at 09:07 AM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 22 Aug 2005 9:27 am
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| Quote: |
| For another thing, try this! Tune your 9th string to C# and then lower your 8th string to D#. |
Most people lower their 9th string to C# on the lever that lowers their 2nd string to C#. I almost automatically hit that lever when I lower my E's to D#. I agree that the C# is very useful with the E's lowered. I just don't subscribe to the notion that people should diverge from the standard string tuning to get those notes.
My biggest concern is that new players will think that an alternate tuning might somehow be "better" than the standard E9th. The licks you've described are all available on the standard tuning. Even the lowering of the 10th string to A is fast becoming standard on the E9th 4th pedal.
Hal and Weldon grew up with the pedal steel at a time when experimentation was the norm. They understood the implications of tuning the second string to C#, and knew how to get the D# when they needed it. Neither of them tune the 9th string to C#, by the way. There are real advantages to the 9th string D, and real disadvantages to the C#.
The biggest problem with 9th string C# comes from the first pedal. When the 10th string is raised to C# and then released, the adjacent 9th string at C# picks up a sympathetic vibration. It continues to sound when you release the pedal.
The biggest advantage to the standard 9th string D is the pedals down 6th/M7th/M9th position with the 9th string as the root. This is one of the fundamental positions for jazz and swing on the E9th. I know that you can get this with a lever, but I wonder how much you use it if you have to use a lever to get it. To me, using a lever to get that very common position would be a major nuisance.
I'm pointing these things out for the benefit of beginners. You don't need to change the tuning to keep from "sounding like everyone else". Your own style will evolve naturally as you master the instrument.
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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 22 Aug 2005 11:18 am
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I'm with you on that b0b! I agree with the idea of beginners starting on the standard thing. I've had students over the years who were always taught the "standard" way and that's the way it should be. Blackie Taylor has many students and always teaches the standard E9 or C6th, whatever they request even though, he plays a 12 string A6th which lowers to E9 with the A & B pedals....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 23 Aug 2005 8:25 am
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| Jerry, I know how you feel. You and I both started playing when there was no standard tuning. It appears that we both accepted the E9 chromatic setup and eventually got used to it. When I switched to the standard U12 setup, it was rough for an old dog to learn new tricks. I eventually got used to that setup and now it is not a problem. We all should do what we CAN do, do it WELL, and leave the rest of the stuff alone. Keep on keepin on ..... JD |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 23 Aug 2005 9:18 am
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John, I was a slow starter on steel! I had one for many years just because I liked Ralph Mooney and wanted to cop some of his licks. Although I love the pedal steel my main instrument always has been and always will be lead guitar. When I started to get more serious on steel I tried to set it up to play more of what I knew on the guitar and never looked at it as a steel guitar, just an extension of my good old Tele. That's probably a bad was to go about things but it's worked OK for me. I know I could never be happy with a S-10 because I'd really miss that danged old low E string! I wish I could play some of the stuff that "real" steel players do but I can't and just do what I know......JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 23 Aug 2005 12:21 pm
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| I was just over on the Buddy Emmons site looking at his Carter S12 extended E6 copedant. He basically has two octaves of E chord with 6ths in each ocatave, and no D string (it's on a lever). |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 24 Aug 2005 5:59 am
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Buddy at one time had a U-12 which had the following knee lever for the change to B6th.
[tab]
F#
D#
G#
E.........lowered to D#
B
G#
F#
E.........lowered to D#
D.........lowered to B
B.........lowered to G#
E
B
I don't know what brand of guitar he had this on but I remember seeing this set up in an article on him somewhere....JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!
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Klaus Caprani
From:
Copenhagen, Denmark
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Posted 24 Aug 2005 7:13 am
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Bob wrote:
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| I'm pointing these things out for the benefit of beginners. You don't need to change the tuning to keep from "sounding like everyone else". Your own style will evolve naturally as you master the instrument. |
A beginner like me has a lot of support in that statement. I often wondered about extra levers and pedals for this and that, completely forgetting that I've maybe touched just the tiniest fraction of what is possible in the standart tuning/setup.
Thanks chief 
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Klaus Caprani
MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com
[This message was edited by Klaus Caprani on 24 August 2005 at 08:14 AM.] |
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