E Raise & Lower Knee Levers

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

I'm restoring an LDG and trying to decide where to put the E raise and lower knee levers.
Seems the standard sho-bud practice was to put them on opposite knees but that doesn't make sense to me as you'd never use them together. Maybe going from one to the other?
Tom Bradshaw's book says to put them both on the right knee as he feels that's easier since the left foot is working the pedals. That makes sense but I don't know any better.
Any opinions about having them both on the right vs. the left knee?
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Todd Blair · From: Richmond Virginia, USA

I like having the raise on LKL, and have gotten used to the lower on RKL (Sho-Bud). It takes some practice to not adjust the volume pedal, when lowering the Es with the right knee, though. I had one PSG where the lower and raise levers were on the right knee, and that took a little more adjustment for me.
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Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

Thinking through it a bit more, I could see wanting to sharpen the first string and flatten the 2nd at the same time so maybe having them on opposite knees isn't a bad idea.
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I like having them on the right, but that's how I learned a 'while' back. Smile

It's true you NEVER use them together, so having them on the same side makes sense to me. If I were to split them, I'd definitely put the raise on the left, but I find I use the other 2 with both raises and lowers, so the same knee for me, and that's the right knee.

James Collett · From: San Dimas, CA

I can't tell you why that's the standard Sho-Bud setup, but I can tell you that with the A pedal + E raise major chord, if you alternate between raising and lowering the E strings, you get the same chord motion as with rocking the A pedal while holding down B. It's nice to have that motion in an alternate position, and it's hard--or maybe even impossible--to do smoothly when both E changes are on one knee.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I have the E raise on the left knee and the E lower on the right knee. I take advantage of that setup frequently in my playing. I often play the A floor pedal and the E lower together, and that's harder to do if the E lower is on the left knee. I also often go rapidly from the E raise to the E lower, and vice versa, which works better when they are on opposite knees. Also, I like to use the left knee vertical to lower the B to Bb, and at the same time lower the Es, which is easier if the E lower is on the right knee.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Same here with all of that.
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Jeff Mead · From: London, England

I don't know if the LDG guitars were set up the way Lloyd used them (I suspect not) but he had is E raise on LKR (very unusual on Emmons setup) and only lowered his low E, not both.

Jeremy Threlfall · From: now in Western Australia

I have this notion that Shobud put the E lower (the first â€˜standard â€˜ lever) at RKR simply because it was closest to the changer (most direct action/least materials in construction). My first real guitar (Shobud Pro 1) had both Es on the right knee, Iâ€™ve kept that set up for subsequent guotars
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Jeffrey McFadden · From: Missouri, USA

As a rank beginner I moved those levers to my right leg because of Tom Bradshaw's book.
Personally I am not able to control my volume pedal while moving knee levers with the same knee. I can mash pedals and do knee levers (left knee) but I can't subtly control volume and do knee levers (right knee.) I moved them back.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

The only thing I would suggest is, IF you put both of them on the Left knee, (Emmons set up), put the Raise (F)lever on LKL so for the, A pedal & (F)Raise lever slide up 3 frets for same major chord. And Lower (D) on LKR. By Pushing down B pedal Lowering Strings 4&8 (D) knee lever for a 7th chord. Comes down to rolling your foot on the pedal and engaging the knee lever in one motion.

I sat down at a new players guitar that the knee levers was opposite the pedal used normally with. And it was impossible to engage knee levers without putting pressure on the wrong pedal.
Then he said,"A friend and him had changed the A&C pedals. (From Day to Emmons) Before it was over I changed and tuned his knee levers for him.
He was a happy camper.

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

Still mulling it over but this reinforces putting the E raise on LKL which I'd already thought made good sense. I'll probably have to try the E lower a couple of ways.
Thanks for the opinions.
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

If your floor pedals are the Emmons configuration you want the E raise lever on LKL. If your pedals are the Day configuration you want the E raise lever on LKR.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Jeffrey McFadden · From: Missouri, USA

Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

Yes, it's Emmons.
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Dave Campbell · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

my ldg raises Es with LKL and lowers with LKR. i like this because all the most used combinations happen with the left leg (pedals and knees). whenever i've played a guitar with the E's lowering with the right leg, it always trips up my volume pedal playing. doing both with the right leg seems impossible to me, but then again, so did playing pedal steel a few years ago.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

A number of years ago there was a long thread about this topic that included the opinions of Paul Franklin and Buddy Emmons. The specific situation is where you want to go directly from the Eb to the F. This is easy if you have the levers that raise and lower E's on different knees, as Paul does. Buddy, of course, could make it work with them both on the same Knee, but most of us probably could not. It's worth reading if I (or someone else) can find it. A quick search did not turn it up, but I will keep looking.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Standard Sho Bud practice indeed was to put E=>F on LKL and E=>Eb on RKL. To 'restore' it to original, that would be the normal configuration.

Anyone contemplating how to configure the E=>F and E=>Eb levers should read this thread: https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769-2.html

There, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, and some other pretty sharp people discussed the relative advantages and disadvantages, and made quite a number of penetrating insights about the tradeoffs involved in E9 pedal steel setups in general. I think that discussion is pretty much one-stop-shopping on this topic, but there are lots of threads about this over a period of at least 15 years.

I said anything I could reasonably say on this thread - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=150471

The only thing I would probably recommend you avoid is to put E=>F on LKR on an Emmons ABC pedal setup. Yes, I realize Lloyd does it, but the rest of us mere mortals are not Lloyd. Just fiddling around with a guitar several years back, I tried that. About like to have twisted my left leg off. Laughing

YMMV and all that.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I'm one of the many who has them on separate knees because I'm not Buddy Emmons. No other reason required Smile

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Jack Hargraves · From: Missouri, USA

I have my E raise on LKL and my E lower on LKR. I couldn't use it any other way.
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Brian Hollands · From: Geneva, FL USA

Thanks for those links - both are interesting and the Paul F. / Buddy one entertaining too.
The only conclusion I can come to is that the E raise will go LKL (emmons pedals) and the E lower will likely be put in at least two spots before I settle on anything.
I'm thinking I'll start with the lower on RKL conceding that Shot and his boys did actually know what they were doing Shocked

If my thighs are thick enough, I'll try out Buddy's slide the knee forward enough to go smoothly from LKL to LKR trick too.
All the advice is much appreciated. Thanks
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'81 Sho-bud LDG, 2 EMCI's

Pete Bailey · From: Seattle, WA

Thanks for those links Dave, that early thread with Paul and Buddy is just gold.

Is the takeaway from that discussion

vs.

or is that too much of an oversimplification?

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Dave - thanks for posting the thread I mentioned - I did not remember that it was from the old forum - I was searching in the wrong place!

After reading that a number of years ago, I considered switching my E-lowers to RKL - but after contemplating how much retraining it would take, I never did. At this point, I'm probably stuck with what I've got (both on LK).
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

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