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Topic: Does the pedal steel guitar world need more builders? |
Nathan French
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2018 9:18 am |
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| Steve Waltz wrote: |
| Those machined parts of the steel have to be seriously time consuming and expensive to make for small shops. |
Yeah, if there were a standard pattern then they could be produced in medium volumes for much cheaper. The parts cost would still add up to a few hundred dollars I think if you're including pedals, connecting rods, etc. |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 12:11 pm
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I don’t know if we need more builders. What we do need is a way to build these contraptions inexpensively. A new D-10 at the very minimum is 4 grand. That’s a lot of money. Used can be had from 1500.00 (MSA’s) on up. Not a small investment for a newbie at any age...
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 3:09 pm Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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Pedal steels are relatively cheap...so I can't figure why we're still hearing how most who want to learn can't afford one.
Yup, this is getting old, guys. Young people, the same ones who tell you this, will stand in line for 3 days to pay $800 for an IPhone. They'll fork over $4+ every morning for a coffee that says "Starbucks" something or other. They'll pay an average of $33,000 for a new car, or just lease one for an average of $600 per month. They'll spend an average of $60-$120 for a pair of sneakers with a fancy name, and $30-$60 for a pair of shorts.
Besides, young people today don't even know what cash is. They pay for everything (even that Starbucks coffee) with a credit card, and they could likely care less about paying anything but the minimum on a bill. So, figuring you can still get a decent PSG for 2-3 grand, what's another $75 a month for the next 3 years? Lead guitar players easily spend that much, or more, especially when you add the requisite boutique tube amp and 6-10 stomp boxes they all seem to have. 
For an old guy living off social security, it may be a lot of money. But for a young person today, the price of a decent PSG is really not that big a deal. Besides, if we had more young players, we'd have more manufacturers. Supply is driven by demand, and there ain't a whole lot of that nowadays. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 4:40 pm
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| Tell it Donny, tell it! |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 6:07 pm
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| I’d gladly pay $10k for a new FSS D10. (Fugii,Schild & Shafer) |
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Paul Stauskas
From:
DFW, TX
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 6:15 pm Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Pedal steels are relatively cheap...so I can't figure why we're still hearing how most who want to learn can't afford one.
Yup, this is getting old, guys. Young people, the same ones who tell you this, will stand in line for 3 days to pay $800 for an IPhone. They'll fork over $4+ every morning for a coffee that says "Starbucks" something or other. They'll pay an average of $33,000 for a new car, or just lease one for an average of $600 per month. They'll spend an average of $60-$120 for a pair of sneakers with a fancy name, and $30-$60 for a pair of shorts.
Besides, young people today don't even know what cash is. They pay for everything (even that Starbucks coffee) with a credit card, and they could likely care less about paying anything but the minimum on a bill. So, figuring you can still get a decent PSG for 2-3 grand, what's another $75 a month for the next 3 years? Lead guitar players easily spend that much, or more, especially when you add the requisite boutique tube amp and 6-10 stomp boxes they all seem to have.
For an old guy living off social security, it may be a lot of money. But for a young person today, the price of a decent PSG is really not that big a deal. Besides, if we had more young players, we'd have more manufacturers. Supply is driven by demand, and there ain't a whole lot of that nowadays. |
"blah blah blah, Get off my lawn, blah blah blah..."
_________________
My site |
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Harry Dove
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2018 8:05 pm
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| I think the single biggest reason that steel guitar will never catch on like other guitars is the cost, not how many brands are made. (My wife is still POed over how much I have spent.) I've talked with a lot of people that would really like to learn to play pedal steel. As soon as you talk about the cost, they are finished. They can buy a good starter flat top for a hundred or two, but a good starter steel is a thousand or two. But that is the nature of the beast. Only the government could sell something for less than it cost to make it. I can see it now, instead of giving out Obama phones, we can have Obama steels. I won't hold my breath. |
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Howard Steinberg
From:
St. Petersburg, Florida , USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 4:52 am
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Maybe the steel guitar world needs another builder who takes the Freeman Cowgar approach. An inexpensive student guitar, in kit form with a simple, basic course and hard case sold for $150., in 1976. Quickly learned to grab 3 strings and step on two pedals and the journey began. Not long before an upgrade was necessary, but never would have got there were it not for this intriguing kit form guitar.
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Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 6:11 am
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Personally I think the barriers to picking up pedal steel are kind of "all of the above, plus."
It's expensive. It's heavy. It's hard to transport and set up. It's mysterious. What's the point of all the pedals and levers?
Add to that, if anyone goes to a pedal steel event and Joe Wright's not there, they're going to think the only thing the instrument is good for is traditional country. It's no criticism of the genre to say that it's not enough to support a wide user base, especially of younger musicians.
I thought about buying mine for at least two years. If I had understood what an incredible, flexible instrument it is I'd have jumped a lot sooner. Not to say I've got this down - y'all know that's not possible yet. But it doesn't take that long for a committed guitar musician to see how much the PSG offers for any melodic or harmonic need, genre notwithstanding.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 8:01 am Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Pedal steels are relatively cheap...so I can't figure why we're still hearing how most who want to learn can't afford one.
Yup, this is getting old, guys. Young people, the same ones who tell you this, will stand in line for 3 days to pay $800 for an IPhone. They'll fork over $4+ every morning for a coffee that says "Starbucks" something or other. They'll pay an average of $33,000 for a new car, or just lease one for an average of $600 per month. They'll spend an average of $60-$120 for a pair of sneakers with a fancy name, and $30-$60 for a pair of shorts.
Besides, young people today don't even know what cash is. They pay for everything (even that Starbucks coffee) with a credit card, and they could likely care less about paying anything but the minimum on a bill. So, figuring you can still get a decent PSG for 2-3 grand, what's another $75 a month for the next 3 years? Lead guitar players easily spend that much, or more, especially when you add the requisite boutique tube amp and 6-10 stomp boxes they all seem to have.
For an old guy living off social security, it may be a lot of money. But for a young person today, the price of a decent PSG is really not that big a deal. Besides, if we had more young players, we'd have more manufacturers. Supply is driven by demand, and there ain't a whole lot of that nowadays. |
Well Donny, young people aren’t the ones gravitating towards pedal steel ! Most of them don’t even know what the damn thing is! Most of the newcomers to pedal steel are middle-aged Gen Xers and Boomer retirees, folks notorious for not saving for retirement, or Being screwed out of their pension by big corporations, Wall Street fat cats, and elitist politicians from both parties and having to be frugal ! Ross, aren’t you building the “ F-22 “of steel guitar ? I already know that you think Steel guitars are not nearly as expensive enough ! John Fabian was perhaps the Henry Ford of steel guitar. I was too dumb and immature to realize that when he was alive. If I had the cash, I would buy the rights to world-class steell guitars. It was a superior product at an affordable price point !
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 8:04 am
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My apologies in advance for those that I may have offended
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 8:29 am
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I am coming to work tomorrow to make about fifty bell cranks. I am shooting for a hundred but should be able to make fifty. I have state of the art equipment to use and state of the art tooling. Made up the drawings, wrote the programs, made a prototype and am now ready to go. I had it at 15 minutes a piece making a single piece at at time. Massaged the program to make four at a time and speeded it up. I also ordered drills that I don't need to peck with and can at least go ten times quicker than the drills I used.
Last edited by Jerry Dragon on 16 Mar 2018 8:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 8:34 am
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| Harry Dove wrote: |
| I think the single biggest reason that steel guitar will never catch on like other guitars is the cost, not how many brands are made. (My wife is still POed over how much I have spent.) I've talked with a lot of people that would really like to learn to play pedal steel. As soon as you talk about the cost, they are finished. They can buy a good starter flat top for a hundred or two, but a good starter steel is a thousand or two. But that is the nature of the beast. Only the government could sell something for less than it cost to make it. I can see it now, instead of giving out Obama phones, we can have Obama steels. I won't hold my breath. |
You also can't stand on a street corner and play and sing along. |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 8:35 am
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Since a good amount of posts here are about economics; I used to play at NAMM every year. Years ago, I saw over and over when small manufacturers would often hit this growing point where they had to invest in a container full of instruments from Korea in order to scale up economically. They'd have to fly over there for quality control as well. Not that I'd want to see it done, but now it's easier than ever to email CAAD files to China, and order instruments on an as needed basis without having the big chunk of cash one used to need for a container load. The Epiphonyan RW&B USA (assembled in) sticker is still legal too. There's probably a way to get orders and distribution for a starter steel/amp/case/pedal/throne/bar/pick/lesson package using crowd funding and other internet reources without an initial monetary investment. Do we need it? No, but if there's a builder or marketer that wants to up their game in this climate, they do. (PS-I'm playing a student guitar in the pic to the left-50 yrs later and its an expensive S10 wrap around).
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 12:28 pm How many to be feasible?
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How many pedal steels would you have to sell a year to be feasible as small mass production? 5,000?
Is somebody trying to tell me there aren't 5,000 people in the US per year who could afford a $4,000.00 guitar?
The problem's not price, it's marketing. Too few people have a reason to want one.
Figure that out, the rest will come.
PS: my 3 point hitch backhoe for my little tractor cost me $5,000.00 My used Carter was a steel, er, steal, at half that.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Mar 2018 5:47 pm Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Paul Stauskas wrote: |
"blah blah blah, Get off my lawn, blah blah blah..." |
(in response to my post about pedal steels being as, or more, affordable than they've ever been)
Paul, you look older than you sound? At any rate, it's easily illustrated that the price of pedal steels haven't increased at all when you consider inflation over the years. In fact, they've gone down. For instance:
Back in 1964, a Fender 1000 D8 with 8 pedals listed for $1,000 and you might have been able to buy it for $900 if you were a real wheeler-dealer. A Sho~Bud or Emmons was about the same (or a little more). Also, back in 1964, a new Chevy Impala went for about 3 grand. Today, an excellent new pedal steel can be bought for about 4 to 5 grand, or about 5 times the price of the 1964 product. But a new Impala will set you back at least 27 grand, or about 9 times the price of the 1964 model.
Right now, if funds are tight for someone, there are several very acceptable steels for sale right here on the forum for under 2 grand. They're a bargain, and you can take it from me or anyone else who's been in this racket for decades, and knows something about pedal steels. I feel those who have the desire and are really serious about learning will find a way buy a guitar. Those who are not will just continually complain about the cost, and why they can't get a new one for under $500. Nothing good comes cheap.
Have a nice day.  |
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Carl Heatley
From:
Morehead City,NC
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 2:45 am
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| Thanks Carl-I like the little denture cups on the endish plates. Keeping America Great. |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 5:53 am
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| Well, I got the first operation on the bell cranks which is the main body of work down to 4.5 minutes of machine time per piece. Including loading and unloading that is about five minutes a piece. That leaves cutting the backside off and then adding the tapped through hole and any hand work. |
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Hal Braun
From:
Eustis, Florida, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 7:24 am Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Paul Stauskas wrote: |
| "blah blah blah, Get off my lawn, blah blah blah..." |
Hehehe... there is a lot of truth right there.. there is a(n)apparently young man (from his picture) that summed up what he heard from “the old guys†of which I am one (66).
Kids buy custom shop Fenders for $2k+ and Gibson historics for $5k and I am sure they can easily see the time and material put into making a pedal steel makes it easily worth the price. My guess is that it is not price that keeps the pedal steel from getting past a niche market status, but the many drawbacks that it has vs other guitars..
It’s bulky, heavy to travel with, easy to damage in flight, you have to have a large stage space to set it up and a chair to sit in. It has little spontaneity for “grabbing and playingâ€, it is a screaming b*tch to learn to play and humbles many trying to learn it. It is difficult to break into other genres and when you do.. the locals here generally poo poo your efforts (thank goodness for pioneers in rock and blues, Sacred Steel, jazz and alternative that continue to break new ground, but there are 10 snarky comments to every one compliment..)
So let’s face it, some of the above is always going to be a drawback. (Portability and size) but even that could be partially negated with keyless and newer materials.. but my guess is a lot of those players have long ago left this forum for more open, like minded folks that are happily pursuing their music without caring about the insular nature of this place.
Some manufacturers are breaking new ground.. stand up pedal steels with 8 strings, Mr Shafers use of carbon fiber, etc.. I think someone with an open mind looking at the pedal steel concept outside the historical country music genre would find a market.
I know it’s a long post, and will probably piss off a few here.. but they are my opinions only based on 10 years or so of reading here, and only posted for discussion.. not to personally insult anyone here, as that is not my intent. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 8:08 am
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Thanks again Donny,
I too was cooking up the new auto vs. new steel comparison. I bought a brand new Datsun Pickup in 1973 for $1995...yes more than a D10 of the day, but the point is that a NEW automobile (and a pretty good one at that) could be had for not a whole lot more than a new steel guitar.
I know the prices charged for the Sierra's I build is shocking to most. In the scheme of things anyone who understands economics, the law of supply/demand and quality will see clearly that they're not such a bad deal and most other new steels being produced are downright screaming deals. You certainly can't touch any new autos for anywhere near steel guitar prices...even Sierra's!
Heck, While laid up with a bummer back this week I came across some cool machining videos put out by a guy who along with his staff (a real machine shop, not a garage operation) produces pocket knives....real beauties produced in small batches. I want one for sure...but the least expensive one on their site is $950....apples to oranges to a lot of you I'm sure, but just another example that REAL quality and craftsmanship costs REAL money.
Doug Ernest is doing a great job of producing a high quality instrument at a super reasonable price....buy those suckers up and quit whining. Other companies are offering lower priced models too....how low is low enough? How cheesy of a guitar do the folks complaining about prices want?
You're kidding yourselves if you think lower priced steels are going to do anything significant to our numbers. If you really want to see more people playing steel (like most of us here do). Quit complaining and find a talented young musician (tons of then out there though they may not be into the same music as you) and be a steel guitar mentor. I'm 100% certain that there's a lot of young folks out there that just don't know how cool steel guitar is yet!
The steel community really does not need any new builders, its needs more YOUNGER players. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 8:24 am
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| Chance Wilson wrote: |
| I’d gladly pay $10k for a new FSS D10. (Fugii,Schild & Shafer) |
So would I! |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 8:32 am Re: Costs too much? You're kidding, right?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Paul Stauskas wrote: |
"blah blah blah, Get off my lawn, blah blah blah..." |
(in response to my post about pedal steels being as, or more, affordable than they've ever been)
Paul, you look older than you sound? |
Um... you absolutely sure Paul was responding to you saying pedal steels were cheaper than ever? I thought he might have seen this part...
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
... Young people, the same ones who tell you this, will stand in line for 3 days to pay $800 for an IPhone. They'll fork over $4+ every morning for a coffee that says "Starbucks" something or other. They'll pay an average of $33,000 for a new car, or just lease one for an average of $600 per month. They'll spend an average of $60-$120 for a pair of sneakers with a fancy name, and $30-$60 for a pair of shorts.
Besides, young people today don't even know what cash is. They pay for everything (even that Starbucks coffee) with a credit card, and they could likely care less about paying anything but the minimum on a bill. So, figuring you can still get a decent PSG for 2-3 grand, what's another $75 a month for the next 3 years? Lead guitar players easily spend that much, or more, especially when you add the requisite boutique tube amp and 6-10 stomp boxes they all seem to have. Laughing |
I'm not really sure you can insult somebody into being on your side. Is all.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 8:32 am
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| Ross Shafer wrote: |
| Chance Wilson wrote: |
| I’d gladly pay $10k for a new FSS D10. (Fugii,Schild & Shafer) |
So would I! |
Like your pig there Ross. Got your hat. |
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Jerry Dragon
From:
Gate City Va.
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Posted 17 Mar 2018 10:14 am
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| I was pushing for a hundred pieces, almost, got 93. |
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