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Topic: "C" pedal question |
Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 12:38 pm |
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
Jeff H: You really need to give the C pedal more credit. There are plenty of uses for just the C pedal. Read my prior post on this thread, as well as the posts of many others.
Regarding tuning: Tune the 4th string (C pedal) F# as you are also pressing the B floor pedal, and tune that F# to sound pleasing against the C# and A of the 5th and 6th strings. Trust your ears. Don't trust what your tuner says. That raised F# should be considerably flat when compared to your first string F#. If you tune ET, straight up to a tuner with no sweeteners, then disregard all my comments about tuning. |
Paul,
In your above examples, all of the 'C-only' clusters you describe are also available two frets higher with no pedals. I can see how many players would prefer to have these on adjacent strings, so that would make sense. All I'm saying is that I'm still confident that I'm not losing anything big without a C Pedal. It's true that the traditional "BC" licks take a little more work my way... But I'm happy with the trade-off.
As for tuning, I was able to successfully tune up the BC chord by ear. I just got tired of the delicate balancing act. When I tune the lowered G#'s, there's not much that can go wrong.
I hope this reply is not taken negatively. I am only trying to say that I have made every consideration carefully. I challenge anybody to throw anything at me requiring a C Pedal. I'm pretty confident I can cover 99% of the scenarios with my setup. |
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 12:39 pm
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I hear a couple of nice uses of the C pedal in this, Neil Young's "Roll Another Number," steel by Ben Keith. The solo starts at around 1:15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faWRUevPHno |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 12:41 pm
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
I forgot: lower the 4th a half tone and play it along with the second string for another unison.
It's more important to have a copedent that you can play in tune, than to have a bunch of options that are not quite in tune. |
Yeah, there are some nice chromatic things that can be done with 4&2 and the E lever.
I will have to meditate on your copedent comment. I want to do everything it is capable of doing, but I am starting to recognize the fact that E9 3x4 does many things very well and some things not so much. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 12:43 pm
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Stephen, I only hear the C-pedal used once, at 1:38. But it's a single-note line, so he might have just slid the bar up two frets on string 4 to do that...
A better example of Ben Keith/Neil Young C-pedal usage (ok,BC) from the same album would be the first note of the steel entrance on Albuquerque. |
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 12:49 pm
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| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Stephen, I only hear the C-pedal used once, at 1:38. But it's a single-note line, so he might have just slid the bar up two frets on string 4 to do that...
A better example of Ben Keith/Neil Young C-pedal usage (ok,BC) from the same album would be the first note of the steel entrance on Albuquerque. |
I'll listen again to Albuquerque!
On Roll Another Number, I also think I hear the C pedal at 1:25, but I'm often wrong. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 1:58 pm
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| Stephen Pride wrote: |
| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Stephen, I only hear the C-pedal used once, at 1:38. But it's a single-note line, so he might have just slid the bar up two frets on string 4 to do that...
A better example of Ben Keith/Neil Young C-pedal usage (ok,BC) from the same album would be the first note of the steel entrance on Albuquerque. |
I'll listen again to Albuquerque!
On Roll Another Number, I also think I hear the C pedal at 1:25, but I'm often wrong. |
I just hear an A pedal lick, not a C pedal. In fact, I don't hear anything in that song that I would think is the C pedal.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 10:34 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Stephen Pride wrote: |
| Tucker Jackson wrote: |
Stephen, I only hear the C-pedal used once, at 1:38. But it's a single-note line, so he might have just slid the bar up two frets on string 4 to do that...
A better example of Ben Keith/Neil Young C-pedal usage (ok,BC) from the same album would be the first note of the steel entrance on Albuquerque. |
I'll listen again to Albuquerque!
On Roll Another Number, I also think I hear the C pedal at 1:25, but I'm often wrong. |
I just hear an A pedal lick, not a C pedal. In fact, I don't hear anything in that song that I would think is the C pedal. |
Interesting. I thought I’d figured out how to play that solo, and I was at the 5th fret with pedals down, and when the notes go A-B-A, I was doing that on the 4th string and using the C pedal to go from A to B. What do I have wrong there? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 6:12 pm
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Stephen, it's all played on the 5th string (meanwhile, the 4th string sounds different... sounds thinner).
While the 5th string is ringing in fret 5, he quickly slides up to the no-pedals D position at the 10th fret (releasing the pedal during that slide up), hits the 5th string again and pumps the A-pedal, then, while ringing, quickly slides back to fret 5 and then steps on A after arriving home.
You can hear the slide up, but especially the slide back down on the recording that gives it away.
When transposing things, hearing tell-tale artifacts (like slides or thin-sounding strings versus fatter ones) really gives me a hint as to what's happening. And since there's always 4 or 5 ways to play the same lick, on different frets/strings, it pays to be mentally flexible and run through several options before deciding.
Even then, if you're like me, several years later, you'll realize you've been doing some lick wrong. The correct way is usually much easier to play. The corollary to that is if you're trying to play a part and some section is just awkward or several levels-of-difficulty higher... you might have transposed it incorrectly. The guy who wrote the original part probably wasn't trying to come up with something that doesn't lay well on the neck or requires painful gymnastics. Take another look, and don't be afraid to look at the lesser used strings or chord positions. |
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Stephen Pride
From:
Berkeley, CA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 11:00 pm
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| Thanks Tucker! I just listened again very closely with your comments in mind, and I do hear what you’re talking about. What do you think about the part at about 1:38? I thought that was 4th string, 10th fret, using the C pedal to play the notes D-E-D. Am I wrong there as well? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 12:22 am
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Sounds right (see my first post in this thread). That seems to be the only C-pedal in the solo. But he may just be sliding the bar up two frets. I can't tell which by listening.
I often prefer to do the bar slide because it's just so easy. Same thing if it's a lick on strings 4 and 5. A 2-fret slide up is sometimes easier than C-pedaling the same notes. |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 2:21 am
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| Buddy Emmons never used His C pedal ! |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 7:51 am
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| Billy Murdoch wrote: |
| Buddy Emmons never used His C pedal ! |
Well that settles it. I’m taking my useless piece of junk C pedal off today and throwing it in the recycle bin. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 6:09 pm
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| Billy Murdoch wrote: |
| Buddy Emmons never used His C pedal ! |
Huh. That's interesting.
Thinking about it. Thinking about it...
Wracking my brain here to come up with a good example of Emmons using the C-pedal...
Oh! He hits it pretty hard at the end of the solo on Rainbow All Over Your Blues (the C-pedal portion of that larger descending run is at 1:26-1:28, starting on beat 4 and the entire following measure). Or maybe I've just been playing it wrong all along, which is very possible.
https://youtu.be/yuxaVfeqTWA?t=1m23s
But your larger point is well taken. He wasn't always jumping on the C-pedal at every opportunity. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 8:21 pm
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| That does it. I’m getting my C pedal back out of the recycle bin. That thing is gold. |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 10:08 pm
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Hi Gents,
I had a clip of Buddy when He appeared at the steel guitar festival run by Gerry Hogan in the U.K.
Scotty was on stage reading out questions which some of the audience had asked,Buddy answered everything.
During the talk,Buddy explains every change (pedals and levers)which were on His guitar.
He did not mention the C pedal and when asked by Scotty,Buddy replied “I never use that pedal†He gave no reason as far as I can remember.
Perhaps some of the British players who were at the show will remember this.
Best regards
Billy |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 12:11 am
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So back into the recycle bin goes the C pedal...
Seriously? the ABC pedal alignment is part of what is called the “Standard Emmons†setup. Could be a coincidence I suppose.That single quote from Buddy about never using the C has been referred to many times on the forum, and I’m sure some people take it as gospel. After all, no sense of humor, that Buddy...
Regardless, John Hughey and Lloyd Green have lived on the C pedal. Good enough for me. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 12:57 am
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Buddy Emmons was constantly experimenting with different tunings and pedal changes. If he really never used the C pedal do you seriously think he would have kept it? Of course not. He would have put the pedal to some other use.
I believe he was pulling your leg.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 3:56 am
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| Why would Buddy have taken time to explain every pedal and lever change to several hundred people and give no description of the C pedal then say He never used it? |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 11:54 am
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You know how we humans speak... we say "I never lie" when we mean "I rarely lie."
Buddy used his C-pedal a little, but I can see why he would say "I never use it." Compared to most us, he never really used it. And I never noticed that until you pointed it out, Billy, so thanks for that. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 7:39 pm "C" pedal question
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If you look at Mel Bays Chord Chart for a Steel Guitar. It only shows one use for the C pedal to make a chord. By engaging the B&C pedal together it gives you a Minor chord on strings 3-4-5-6.
If you are in G at the 3rd fret. A pedal gives you Em. Down 5 frets to the 8th fret D knee Lever is another Em. Or 7 frets down,To the 10th Fret, With pedals B&C strings 3-4-5-6 another Em.
This 7 frets down works with any chord to get the 6th minor chord ???? for the major chord.
With pedals A&B down at the 10 fret you are in G If you need an Em quickly you have 2 choices. Back up 2 frets and engage D Knee Lever Lowering 4&8,(Em) or stay on the 10 fret and engage the B&C pedal, (Em).
A friend I used to play music with on 6 string used a lot of minors for song kick offs. I learned to use the B&C pedals a lot to copy his intros. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Mar 2018 3:09 am
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Here's Buddy using the C pedal with his right foot (2:08​) although by the time he said he never used it he may well have been speaking the truth, or close to it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qnEMOQTh27s
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Mar 2018 6:18 am
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http://www.buddyemmons.com/Watson.htm
Tab and sample from Buddy Emmons web page, really interesting use of C pedal to sustain a pitch above a moving line, what they called oblique motion in my music theory classes. |
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