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Topic: Correcting 6th string detuning on the E9th? |
Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 3:58 pm |
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I'd like to learn if anyone has found a trick to compensating for the detuning of the 6th string (caused by cabinet drop) that results when the B & C pedals are depressed together. I'm aware that adding a compensator on the 6th string (attached to the C pedal changes) can accomplish this, but if that pedal is actuated alone, there is a slight increase in the pitch of the 6th string, which is annoying. Anyone know of a slick way of doing this?
I wish the Forum had a topic thread addressing only mechanical issues with steel's! ...Tom |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 6:35 pm
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That's funny that you bring this up. I've been contemplating this problem for some time and thought about throwing out a challenge to the forum. I have no solution yet and you have correctly described the dilemma. The C pedal must provide a compensation to the raised 6th string but not prevent it from returning separately to open pitch. 
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Jerry Jones |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 3:32 am
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That, there, is the problem I've run into with 6th string compensators:
-- in my experiments with this, putting the compensator on various different pedals & levers (including the F lever) when the compensator is engaged, raising 6 a smidge, and the B pedal is pressed and then released, it comes back way sharp. Totally unusable. I've never fully pictured just what is happening mechanically that causes this to happen, causing the slack to get taken up with the B pedal down/up |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 5:46 am Compensator
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Without going to deep...
Problem: Need to compensate string 6 when pedals B & C are pushed. Not compensate when only B or C are pushed.
One way to solve is to use a bell crank system like in the following drawing... Note: I have not done this yet, but the theory is good.
Last edited by Dick Sexton on 10 Mar 2018 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 6:16 am
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| Dick, if you replace your "4th" and "5th" with the B and C pedal, then your drawing makes sense = compensate 6th string only when both the B and C pedal are activated. |
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Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 6:22 am In theory...
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| Thanks Georg... I see your point, but this is all I have time for for free, then we jump to engineering rates. Lol! |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 6:29 am
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Tom, I've had some luck keeping constant tension on the offending changer.
How does it work? By keeping that changer under tension (load). The trick is to pull just enough to make the cabinet deflection anomaly disappear.
Another way to put it; It takes slack out of an "at rest" changer that might have some loose tolerances.
I've had success with this on MSA and EMCI. These two guitars had fairly worn changers. A lot of miles on them so to speak.
Procedure:
1. Install a short stationary cross shaft anywhere you have room but preferably as close as possible to the changers with out getting in the way of the undercarriage functions. The cross shaft must be mounted solid, no movement. It becomes an anchor point.
2. Install a pull rod to a spare hole (raise or lower) on the sixth string changer, anchored to your new stationary cross shaft. Either with a spare bell crank or just a hole in the shaft big enough to accept a pull rod. 1/8" hole is what I did. I turned 4-40 threads on the end and used nuts and lock washers to fasten it to the stationary cross shaft. The other end is conventional with a nylon tuner.
3. Use the nylon tuner on this new stationary pull rod to (raise or lower) the pitch of string 6, thereby applying tension constantly on that changer.
4. Tune the open string at the keyhead as normal.
5. Adjust your normal raise and lowers to compensate for the new position.
NOTE: Installed on a lower hole, the spring keeps the tension (optimum method) Installed on a raise hole, the string keeps the tension. (less effective)
Hope this helps. I had several folks interested in this idea. It is difficult to articulate by typing. I would at some point like to video a demonstration of installing this on any all pull guitar that has this problem. I don't think it is a new or revolutionary concept. Just a different way of looking at all pull changers that are problematic. I imagine results will vary somewhat.
I have not openly demonstrated this to anyone. I am sure there are those who would be skeptical that it works. But it is a non destructive possible solution. It doesn't hurt the guitar to try it in other words. Minimal investment.
I have drawings if you are interested.
~Bill~ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 6:46 am
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One way to compensate for body-drop detuning, is to attach the stop-plate for the changer-scissors to the keyhead (and, yes, the keyhead is at the other end  ).
On my old Dekley I "faked it" by attaching the stop-plate to the bottom of the front and rear frame profile. Result: detuning of 6th string is at a low 0.1 cent or thereabout = cannot measure accurately, regardless of what pedals/levers that are being pushed. On other PSGs it may not be that easy. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 8:10 am
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| I'm a pragmatist. First, I'd try a wound 6th instead of a plain, which will reduce the amount of drop. If it was still bothersome at that point, I'd sell the guitar and get another one which didn't exhibit this problem. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2018 10:36 am Re: Correcting 6th string detuning on the E9th?
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| Tom Bradshaw wrote: |
I'd like to learn if anyone has found a trick to compensating for the detuning of the 6th string (caused by cabinet drop) that results when the B & C pedals are depressed together. I'm aware that adding a compensator on the 6th string (attached to the C pedal changes) can accomplish this, but if that pedal is actuated alone, there is a slight increase in the pitch of the 6th string, which is annoying. Anyone know of a slick way of doing this?
I wish the Forum had a topic thread addressing only mechanical issues with steel's! ...Tom |
My 2 cents  - I've never noticed this, probably because I tune the C pedal with B+C engaged. If the A note is going flat, it doesn't really matter because the C# and high F# are in tune with it. The 7th string F# is dropping a bit too, and that's actually good in the B+C position.
I think this is only a problem on the open strings, where the whole chord is a few cents flat.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Tom Bradshaw
From:
Walnut Creek, California, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 3:19 pm I'm giving up.
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I thank everyone for their input. I was hoping for a "fix" that would be so simple that I'd feel ignorant for asking. But to the point: I discovered that I was wrong about my cabinet drop claim. Bill opened my eyes to that truth, prompting me to check out this concern more closely on the 3 guitars I had available. All had about a 3 cent cabinet drop. I remembered from years of working on steels that cabinet drop actually helps true the A6th chord when pedals A and B are depressed, when that drop flattens the F# strings slightly to true up the sound of the A6th chord created when the A and B pedals are depressed together (as Bob Lee also mentioned).
After some checking with a tuner, I concluded that the problem was in the changer as Bill mentioned. The 3 guitars I had on hand were two Williams and the MSA I'm working on. When pedals A and B are depressed, all three detuned the same amount, about 4 cents. To my amazement, all remained in tune, being nearly perfect for a just-tuned sound in the open position as well as when the A & B pedals are depressed and changed the chord from E9th to A6th. The only problem with all 3 guitars was with that 6th string when only the B and C pedals were depressed. Their 6th strings dropped in pitch about 4 cents!
With no easy fix being available through this topic, I thought about killing myself or chopping the guitars to bits. I canned that idea when I realized the 3 guitars were not mine! Rather than these options, I'm wondering, does anyone EVER engage the C pedal without also engaging the B pedal? Or, does anyone actually voice the 6th string when the C pedal is engaged alone? If neither occurs, why shouldn't I just attach a compensator rod to the 6th string on the C pedal? It would act to true up that string's pitch whenever the B and C pedals were depressed together? Let me know here or to avoid filling up this topic with posts, email me at tommybradshaw@gmail.com.
I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this? ...Tom |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 5:27 pm
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Yes; I use a wound 6th string to NO drop. Also I now use a .015p for the 4th sting like Paul Franklin...and now even less drop on that E note than ever.
Also I play a 24" scale pedal steel. Also I use string gauges designed for a 24" scale; NOT a Emmons or Zum or...etc...longer scale.
I have no detuning problems on any unused open strings when other pedals or knee levers used.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
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Posted 11 Mar 2018 7:26 pm c ped 6 string comp
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Here is what I came up with. Tom Should work.
This will let rod slip through 2 pedal pull when its engaged yet raise it when c is pulled
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Mar 2018 7:27 am Re: I'm giving up.
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| Tom Bradshaw wrote: |
I thank everyone for their input. I was hoping for a "fix" that would be so simple that I'd feel ignorant for asking...
All had about a 3 cent cabinet drop...
After some checking with a tuner, I concluded that the problem was in the changer as Bill mentioned. The 3 guitars I had on hand were two Williams and the MSA I'm working on. When pedals A and B are depressed, all three detuned the same amount, about 4 cents...
The only problem with all 3 guitars was with that 6th string when only the B and C pedals were depressed. Their 6th strings dropped in pitch about 4 cents!
With no easy fix being available through this topic, I thought about killing myself or chopping the guitars to bits...
I'm wondering, does anyone EVER engage the C pedal without also engaging the B pedal? Or, does anyone actually voice the 6th string when the C pedal is engaged alone?...
I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this? ...Tom |
Here's my thoughts:
I cut out all but what I considered key info to arrive at the above "condensed version", so bear with me. Now, understand - I'm probably about the lowest face on the totem pole around here, but I'd say that if the drop is no more than 3 or 4 cents - Ignore It! Stop staring at the digital tuner, stop sweating about numbers and just listen to what's going on when you're playing. I can assure you that most all steelers would have trouble holding intonation within 3 or 4 cents when they're actually playing, and playing is what we do!
Anything less than 5 cents "out" can be "played through" just fine. Shucks, the "sweetening" variations that many ET-tuning players utilize far exceed those numbers.
From an engineering standpoint, it may be interesting to come with some "fix" for this problem. But when it comes to music, it's wholly unnecessary, IMHO. Also, yes Tom...I know of at least one player who uses the "C" pedal by itself. Me.
Peace |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:02 pm
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I’d love to hear a solution for this.
The problem of strings 3 and 6 going flat by different amounts appears on every pedal steel I own, except the D10 PP.
String 7 goes flat in BC as well, usually around 5 cents.
I tune 3 and 6 to be beat free in AB pedals down, and when open. When you engage BC for the F#minor, the A pedal for C#minor, and AF for C#maj, the two strings do not drop by the same amount. The different is usually about 5 cents, but can be even more, as much as 8 cents difference in drop depending the guitar. That makes a wobbly octave between 3 and 6.
The culprit is string 6. You can tune strings 4 and 5 to be in tune with the flattened String 7, but it will still rub with string 6.
I know a wound 6th string will help, but I prefer the sound and throw of an unwound 6th string.
Bob, if you’ve never noticed this, then I suspect the Meantone tuning you use is showing its advantages.
I’ve thought about using a compensator, but it appears there are trade offs, based on what you guys are saying.
And yes you can play through it, or avoid the troublesome intervals. It would be great to solve the problem.
John |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 13 Mar 2018 4:56 pm
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WARNING: this is a paper solution and is meant only to test the concept.
This method involves the actual 4th string raise rod, a short 6th string compensator rod adjusted with a nylon nut at the changer and another short rod activated by a B pedal crank in the 8th string position.
C = actual E > F# rod
B = compensator rod adjusted at changer
X = short rod also activated by B pedal
On my Zum the linear travel for the 4th string rod is about .150 and the 6th string rod is about .035. This drawing shows the C pedal as activated… the B pedal is not.
Given that the 6th string compensator rod also travels .035 when pressing B, pressing BC will not have enough travel at B to contact the stop collar on the compensator rod. The X crank travel needs to be increased by moving the driving rod up a few slots in the crank.
4th slot = .0065 of compensator adjustment
5th slot = .0145
6th slot = .0225
For point of reference, one rotation of a 4-40 nylon nut is .025
Me, I temper my C pedal and live with a slightly flatted A.... I rarely need to dwell on a full 3 note BC chord anyway.
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Jerry Jones
Last edited by Jerry Jones on 18 Mar 2018 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Chance Wilson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 12:39 am
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| I like both. Bill’s is so simple and easy to deploy, I’ll probably put it on some psg at some point. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 2:42 am
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| Chance Wilson wrote: |
| I like both. Bill’s is so simple and easy to deploy, I’ll probably put it on some psg at some point. |
Chance thanks for the confidence in the solution I suggested. As you stated, I like the examples Jerry provided and Bob Cox's too. Some guitars that are really loaded up, as I recall, Bud Carter himself had, at different times, necessarily installed compensating devices depending on the guitar limitations, the demands of the tuning, and demands of the player. My idea came from Bud's coaching. His general approach to fixing these things always had what I would call and elegant simplicity. The man was a practical mechanical genius.
I would like to find a guitar that has this problem "really bad" to use as a proving tool. Where you would analyze every place such as John's descriptions of the problems, then apply these devices until the problem disappears. Care must be taken I think to not go too far. It can quickly become complicated and confusing. Again I defer to Bud Carter. He would mark the compensators with different colors. A player could be on a job and get on the wrong nylon tuner and really throw the guitar out of whack. Ive done that to myself before. Not fun.
~Bill~ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 3:55 am
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| Bill C. Buntin wrote: |
| Another way to put it; It takes slack out of an "at rest" changer that might have some loose tolerances. |
The described procedure moves the "at rest" tension for the lower (or raise) scissor from the stop-plate (which on most PSGs is attached to the end-plate) onto the side-rails. So far so good, as the stop-plate should have been attached to the side-rails to begin with.
Will just add that there is no slack to take up in "at rest" position. Unless worn out, those return-spring, and the string tension, pull the lower and raise scissors firmly against the stop-plate. Whether or not the stop-plate stays firmly in place relative to the rest of the changer and the pull-mechanics, is another matter, and wear doesn't help on stability. Bill's solution will definitely improve on "at rest" stability for the scissor(s) it is attached to. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 18 Mar 2018 5:53 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| Bill C. Buntin wrote: |
| Another way to put it; It takes slack out of an "at rest" changer that might have some loose tolerances. |
The described procedure moves the "at rest" tension for the lower (or raise) scissor from the stop-plate (which on most PSGs is attached to the end-plate) onto the side-rails. So far so good, as the stop-plate should have been attached to the side-rails to begin with.
Will just add that there is no slack to take up in "at rest" position. Unless worn out, those return-spring, and the string tension, pull the lower and raise scissors firmly against the stop-plate. Whether or not the stop-plate stays firmly in place relative to the rest of the changer and the pull-mechanics, is another matter, and wear doesn't help on stability. Bill's solution will definitely improve on "at rest" stability for the scissor(s) it is attached to. |
That is exactly correct Georg. I might add, I like the idea you mention about the changer to the keyhead.
Also,in reference to Ricky Davis' excellent solution, you can also use a .022P instead of the typical .020P. Thats something I learned from the late Gene Fields. He introduced the notion of a .012 for string 3, a .018 for string 5 and a .022 for string 6. He was right. I've been using those since. I'm going to follow Ricky's advice as well for the 4th string. Obviously the bigger strings cause more torque. I suppose this is why it works.
~Bill~ |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 31 May 2023 8:32 am
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Redrawing.....
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Jerry Jones
Last edited by Jerry Jones on 3 Jun 2023 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 1 Jun 2023 4:24 am
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Tom asked if anyone ever used just the C pedal.
I recently stumbled on a pleasant change when lowering the 9th and engaging just the C pedal. It's a passing move, not to be lingered upon but his question got me thinking.
For the record, I got a noticeable drop on the 6th when I played this combination. I actually tweaked the 6th up a bit but, of course, that was a problem once I'd returned to more familiar territory.
I have no compensators. I've never encountered a tuning problem that can't be 'played' into submission. Some combinations that are a bit 'off' can be passed over quickly: I remain convinced that one's overall playing is what speaks (Donny's point).
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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chuck lemasters
From:
Jacksonburg, WV
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Posted 1 Jun 2023 6:08 am
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| The A+F combination with the resulting sixth string drop bothered me more than the B+C drop. A compensator added to the F raise made for a much sweeter sounding chord. Just for the heck of it, I backed off the compensated tuner and tried the Bill C. Buntin method to put some tension on the changer and saw no improvement in the sixth string drop. I saw no real difference in string six returning to pitch with or without the compensator. It seems to be a problem that no amount of lubrication or fiddling with the roller nut has helped with the plain six. I have gone back and forth with a wound and plain six and really prefer the plain string. Like Donny says, this “hysteresis” maybe more a problem when looking at the tuner than when actually playing. But for now, I am leaving the compensator on the F lever…. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 1 Jun 2023 7:19 am
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I played a D-10 Franklin for 38 years. It had cabinet drop but "it never hurt my playing" (or recording).
I now have an SD-10 keyless GFI Ultra. No detectable cabinet drop with a Peterson tuner. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 1 Jun 2023 7:38 am
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I have a TU-12 which only occasionally gets used. Most of the time, I tune to please my ears. I know those pesky G#s need to be a bit flat but by precisely how much? The info is out there but I don't refer to it.
These days it's just me (hopefully, I'll soon begin a new phase of home-recording), and the TU-12 is used to touch things up every couple of weeks. What with the A/C going on and off, things can drift a bit and I'll catch myself out just tuning 'relatively' (everything meshing nicely). That's when I'll check 'ground zero' with the Boss, but only open strings (with the exception of 3 and 6 on E9: those I pedal up to the A for tuning).
There's the odd day when my ears are 'tired' and things won't sound good. Odds on, a check with the tuner will show me that it's all gone a bit flat. That's when I resort to artificial aids. But not for the pulls, though. I use my ears for those.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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