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Topic: "C" pedal question |
Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 8:47 am |
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I'm still teaching my feet to find the right pedals without help from my eyes.
I have learned several uses of the A, the B, and A & B pedal combinations, both in scale / melody lines and in chords.
The only use I know for the C pedal so far is in implementing certain notes in single-note melody lines.
I'm expecting my first PSG books (Winnie Winston, Michael Perlowin) to come today or tomorrow, and have begun Tom Bradshaw's chord book online.
In simple terms, what are some common uses of the C pedal, alone or in combination, in chord construction?
Thanks,
Jeff
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 9:12 am
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That pedal has unexpected uses. In the days before it was possible to raise and lower the same string, it's function was to seemingly lower the 6th string by simultaneously sliding down two frets.
The Winston book will explain that and much else - enjoy!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
Last edited by Ian Rae on 7 Mar 2018 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ed Boyd
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 9:29 am
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I use B and C in combination a lot. It creates the 2 minor when gripping 3-4-5-6. By 2 I mean if you are in 8th position which is C open and you press B+C and grip strings 3-4-5-6 you make a Dm. 2nd tone of the C scale.
And I mash the B and C on and of for a lot of licks. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 9:46 am
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If you start from the no pedals position and go up 3 frets as you press the C pedal (only the C pedal), you have the following intervals on the 3rd through 6th strings: 5, 4, 2, 5. Those are all major scale tones.
If you do the same thing 5 frets up the intervals are: 6, 5, 3, 6. Again, all major scale tones.
If instead of going up, you go down two frets from the no pedals position you have the following intervals: 2, 1, 5, 2. Major scale tones once again.
Try playing those positions as you play just strings 4 & 6. Don't get stuck in the rut of always trying to play three note chords.
There are lots of possible uses if you think in terms of passing notes and partial chords. The more you explore, the more you will find.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 10:28 am
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Listen to the sound samples on the page linked below and see if anything interests you! The tabs for them are there as well. I started a series at the bottom of the page showing some Lloyd Green type uses for the "C" pedal but never finished tabbing them out. The 1st one shows a lot of the concept though.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab11.html |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 10:56 am
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
Listen to the sound samples on the page linked below and see if anything interests you! The tabs for them are there as well. I started a series at the bottom of the page showing some Lloyd Green type uses for the "C" pedal but never finished tabbing them out. The 1st one shows a lot of the concept though.
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab11.html |
I just spent 15 minutes writing a response, but deleted it after seeing that Greg has already done what I was suggesting, and done it 100 times better. Just go to his link and get crackin’. And thanks, Greg! 
+1 on Paul S.’ suggestion of getting out of the 3-note chord rut. Single notes and dyads can be very effective on this instrument. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 1:11 pm
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| You have mentioned that you play a lot of blues, one of the basic blues positions is using the B+C pedals 2 frets back from the open chord position. For Example, key of A, 2 frets back, which is the 3rd fret. Play blues scale licks using the B+C pedals. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 3:52 pm
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Here is a harmonized G major scale using the B and C pedals and strings 4 and 6. the letter P means depress the 2 pedals.
3 3P 5P 8 10 10P 12P 15
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2018 6:25 pm
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You guys are all just great. Thanks.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Alan Bidmade
From:
Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 11:38 am
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Both of the books you have on order will help enormously. Be sure you get Mike Perlowin's appendix for pedal steel. His book is the best musical theory book I have ever come across - all explained clearly and logically.
The Winnie Winston book is a must - although I do believe the exercises need editing or re-ordering. Some of them appearing quite early in the book are really difficult. Take your time and don't fret over things you can't play. You'll get there in time!
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP
First name Alan, but known as Nick |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 12:24 pm
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The steel supplement Alan mentioned has not been published and is not for sale. You have to get it directly from me.
I will send a free copy to anybody who requests it. Please do so with an E-mail rather than a PM. I will attach the file to the reply.
Bear in mind that the supplement is useless without the book. Things like "here is the example on page X tabbed out" are meaningless if you don't have page X.
Full disclosure: I get about a little money every time somebody buys the book. If everybody who is reading this thread buys a copy, I'll be able to afford a new set of strings.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 1:24 pm
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| Alan Bidmade wrote: |
| The Winnie Winston book is a must - although I do believe the exercises need editing or re-ordering. Some of them appearing quite early in the book are really difficult. |
You're not alone there. Winston himself said that his only regret on that book was that the tabbed songs were probably too difficult for a beginner.
I agree. There are some whiz-bang moves that sound cool, but don't really help a beginner understand the basic principles. I found the Scotty books have better tab in that respect. But they don't have as many cool old photos as the Winston book does... the one of the guy in the all-plaid suit setting up a steel guitar is worth the price of admission. Really, there's so much good information in Winston that it's rightfully part of the canon. But I would hate a beginner to fail at playing the tab and figure steel guitar was just too hard. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 1:35 pm
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| Bill Moore wrote: |
| You have mentioned that you play a lot of blues, one of the basic blues positions is using the B+C pedals 2 frets back from the open chord position. For Example, key of A, 2 frets back, which is the 3rd fret. Play blues scale licks using the B+C pedals. |
I put a twelve bar blues in G on Band In A Box and let it run for an hour this afternoon and practiced leads around it, which is pretty much what I do in the band. The B&C turned out useful several places. Thanks for the pointer
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 1:47 pm
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| Ed Boyd wrote: |
I use B and C in combination a lot. It creates the 2 minor when gripping 3-4-5-6. By 2 I mean if you are in 8th position which is C open and you press B+C and grip strings 3-4-5-6 you make a Dm. 2nd tone of the C scale.
And I mash the B and C on and of for a lot of licks. |
That's interesting. I've been getting my 2 minor with A&B strings 5-6-7 at the root fret.
The more ways I learn to play minors the better off I am. We do, for instance, Wild Horses (Stones) with a 2 & 3 minor, and the Beatles Nowhere Man, which sees that and raises it a 6 and a 4(!) minor. So I can use all the minor positions I can get. Thanks.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 7:29 pm
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When looking at minor chords, don't overlook the G#m (at the nut) of using the E lowers. The whole tone drop of 2 and the 2 F# strings provide neat melodic scale tones in there, too.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tim Heidner
From:
Groves, TX
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Posted 8 Mar 2018 7:53 pm
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| The A pedal by itself gives you a minor, too. |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 5:34 am
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| Tim Heidner wrote: |
| The A pedal by itself gives you a minor, too. |
Yes, that was the first one I found. Your basic 6 minor, the keystone in a million rock-and-roll songs. And country songs.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 8:16 am
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| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| Tim Heidner wrote: |
| The A pedal by itself gives you a minor, too. |
Yes, that was the first one I found. Your basic 6 minor, the keystone in a million rock-and-roll songs. And country songs. |
It is a 6m if your major key chord is the no pedals position. It is a 3m in pedals down, and a 2m in “E’s loweredâ€. In A/F position, slide two frets up, it is also a 2m.
I think of it as just another way of playing a minor chord voicing. It could be any scale degree, depending on which one of a handful of positions is being viewed as “Homeâ€. I can’t think of any chord voicings that would be limited to an identity that specific.
On the topic of minor chord locations, there are two voicing grips with no pedals or levers.
10-9-7-5 (a 2m in pedals down) and 6-5-2 (3m in no pedals) |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 9:36 am
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I have yet to be attacked for my non-typical opinion on this... But I strongly dislike the C Pedal. Here are my reasons:
*It only creates one chord, and that chord doesn't span all of the strings.
*It is completely useless by itself (without the B Pedal).
*The chord it creates is very difficult to temper when tuning.
I prefer to lower the G#'s a half step. That gives me the same minor chord voicing, except over all of the main strings... And it tunes up perfectly. I have found this to be way more efficient.
I am guessing that the C Pedal came about in an era when steel guitars were better equipped to raise a string than lower one, but that I don't know for sure. Also, I know that most pros still maintain a standard ABC for E9. So, maybe I am really missing something. Or, maybe most of them have just stuck with it because it works. But, many pros who have experimented a lot (such as Maurice) have ended up without a C Pedal.
Sorry, my opinion is likely useless to most... but, I gave it anyway in case there's anyone who can benefit from it.
Last edited by Jeff Harbour on 9 Mar 2018 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 9:44 am
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Jeff H: You really need to give the C pedal more credit. There are plenty of uses for just the C pedal. Read my prior post on this thread, as well as the posts of many others.
Regarding tuning: Tune the 4th string (C pedal) F# as you are also pressing the B floor pedal, and tune that F# to sound pleasing against the C# and A of the 5th and 6th strings. Trust your ears. Don't trust what your tuner says. That raised F# should be considerably flat when compared to your first string F#. If you tune ET, straight up to a tuner with no sweeteners, then disregard all my comments about tuning.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 9 Mar 2018 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 9:46 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| Tim Heidner wrote: |
| The A pedal by itself gives you a minor, too. |
Yes, that was the first one I found. Your basic 6 minor, the keystone in a million rock-and-roll songs. And country songs. |
It is a 6m if your major key chord is the no pedals position. It is a 3m in pedals down, and a 2m in “E’s loweredâ€. In A/F position, slide two frets up, it is also a 2m.
I think of it as just another way of playing a minor chord voicing. It could be any scale degree, depending on which one of a handful of positions is being viewed as “Homeâ€. I can’t think of any chord voicings that would be limited to an identity that specific.
On the topic of minor chord locations, there are two voicing grips with no pedals or levers.
10-9-7-5 (a 2m in pedals down) and 6-5-2 (3m in no pedals) |
Yes, actually I understand that. In Nowhere Man, which we play, that pedal is used to make (playing the song in D) an Em, an F#m, and a Gm. And since I root the song in D at a "pedals down" (open A) position none of them are 6m's.
But I find some verbal shorthand necessary in order to communicate as best I can. I doubt I'll get any better with that. My shorthand is more or less, at this time, standardized on "no pedals" positions.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 10:40 am
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| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
| That raised F# should be considerably flat when compared to your first string F#. If you tune ET, straight up to a tuner with no sweeteners, then disregard all my comments about tuning. |
Paul, what do you think of compromising the C pedal tuning a bit to get a little closer to the open 1st string? That way, unisons won’t sound quite as gnarly. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 10:54 am
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I don't use the first and raised 4th strings to play unisons. There are plenty of other unisons available, like the second raised to E and the unraised 4th string, or the second lowered to C# and the raised 5th string. So that's not an issue for me. What's important to me is for the raised 4th string to sound sweet when played with the 3rd, 5th, &/or 6th strings. I use those combinations all the time. One can't have everything. Compromises must be made.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 11:06 am
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Hmm, nice to have more options.
I have exactly two unisons, and one resolves a half step apart, so compromise I must... I flatten string 1 and raise the C on 4. If I use B&C together for the unison on 1&4, cabinet drop gets it pretty darn close. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 9 Mar 2018 11:26 am
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I forgot: lower the 4th a half tone and play it along with the second string for another unison.
It's more important to have a copedent that you can play in tune, than to have a bunch of options that are not quite in tune.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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