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Topic: So...getting started -- U12? |
James Winger
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 3:25 pm |
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hey guys, been a member for a few months.
just reading along
I'M originally a classic[al] guitarist (but I'm very rusty)
and have been playing around with a slide guitar extender nut which is neat
But I've had some times to jump on a PSG and just make sounds and it's freaking magical how the sounds cn just sort of float
and after some chatting with Susan Alcorn just about music and sound ...and life (super nice person and she seems to take the PSG to some pretty interesting places)
I'd like to give it a full shot.
I'm not really married to particular styles and don't have aspirations about playing out(I'm 48 and can't stay up late anymore anyway)
I'm not seeing a whole lot of teaching material on U12, but I may be looking in the wrong spot.
any advice would be appreciated. I guess I just need a push staart if that makes sense |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 3:36 pm
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The top 8 strings of U12 are the same as E9th. The bottom 10 strings of U12 (with the lever engaged) are B6th, the same as C6th but 1/2 step lower. E9th and C6th instructional material translates easily to the U12.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 3:51 pm
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| I feel there is a reason most "Pros" play D-10s. For a 10% savings in weight, the compromises are too great,IMHO ! |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 4:26 pm
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Could that be because they started playing before the U12, or were influenced by people who became Pros before the U12?
Tradition is very influential in making choices. The U12 is not traditional in the truest respects.
I love the idea of the Uni. I hate the two lowest strings. I've have 2 U12 guitars and prefer a D10, only for the 10 strings. I love the Uni idea. My goal is to have an S10 Uni someday. Which is not very hard to do...unless you want a new Sierra  Which I do.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 4:26 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| The top 8 strings of U12 are the same as E9th. The bottom 10 strings of U12 (with the lever engaged) are B6th, the same as C6th but 1/2 step lower. E9th and C6th instructional material translates easily to the U12. |
So - because I'm wearing my fingers out counting on them - what notes, open, are strings 9 & 10 on a U-12, relative to 9 & 10 on an E9? Note letters or scale degree, either way.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 4:36 pm
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U-12 or U-12 extended E9th. After playing a Kline for 20 years, my brain is a 12 string brain. There's such great stuff using those two low strings, although if you don't wanna use them, don't! But they're great to have!
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 4:45 pm
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Famous guitarist (and my best friend) was going to hire a string trio for background. That is, until he heard my Kline playing the trio parts. I'm kinda hard to hear as I'm background/texture, but it's a Zaza cd not a JB cd;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puov93SDltM
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 5:31 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| The top 8 strings of U12 are the same as E9th. The bottom 10 strings of U12 (with the lever engaged) are B6th, the same as C6th but 1/2 step lower. E9th and C6th instructional material translates easily to the U12. |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| So - because I'm wearing my fingers out counting on them - what notes, open, are strings 9 & 10 on a U-12, relative to 9 & 10 on an E9? Note letters or scale degree, either way. |
The 9th string of E9th is missing on the U12.
| Tab: |
How U-12 maps to the standard 10-string tunings:
U-12 E9 B6 C6
1 F# F# (F#) (G)
2 D# D# (C#) (D)
3 G# G#
4 E E D# E
5 B B B C
6 G# G# G# A
7 F# F# F# G
8 E E D# E
9 B D B C
10 G# B G# A
11 E E F
12 B B C
Bold indicates knee lever change. |
The E9th's 9th string note is made with a knee lever on either the 8th or 9th string.
My original post was a bit off. The bottom 9 strings (not 10) match the C6th. The C6th 1st string is either the 1st or 2nd string of the U-12. The 1st string of the standard C6th can be either G or D. It's a personal preference. The U-12's B6th has both.
Some U-12's are equipped with a "lock lever" to lock the guitar into "B6th mode" by lowering the E's to D#.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 6:23 pm
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| John Billings wrote: |
Famous guitarist (and my best friend) was going to hire a string trio for background. That is, until he heard my Kline playing the trio parts. I'm kinda hard to hear as I'm background/texture, but it's a Zaza cd not a JB cd;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puov93SDltM |
Nice work. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 6:50 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| The top 8 strings of U12 are the same as E9th. The bottom 10 strings of U12 (with the lever engaged) are B6th, the same as C6th but 1/2 step lower. E9th and C6th instructional material translates easily to the U12. |
| Jeffrey McFadden wrote: |
| So - because I'm wearing my fingers out counting on them - what notes, open, are strings 9 & 10 on a U-12, relative to 9 & 10 on an E9? Note letters or scale degree, either way. |
The 9th string of E9th is missing on the U12.
| Tab: |
How U-12 maps to the standard 10-string tunings:
U-12 E9 B6 C6
1 F# F# (F#) (G)
2 D# D# (C#) (D)
3 G# G#
4 E E D# E
5 B B B C
6 G# G# G# A
7 F# F# F# G
8 E E D# E
9 B D B C
10 G# B G# A
11 E E F
12 B B C
Bold indicates knee lever change. |
The E9th's 9th string note is made with a knee lever on either the 8th or 9th string.
My original post was a bit off. The bottom 9 strings (not 10) match the C6th. The C6th 1st string is either the 1st or 2nd string of the U-12. The 1st string of the standard C6th can be either G or D. It's a personal preference. The U-12's B6th has both.
Some U-12's are equipped with a "lock lever" to lock the guitar into "B6th mode" by lowering the E's to D#. |
I only play E9, but I have a universal tuning because I like that low B string. In fact, I drop it drop it down even further to Am in the A pedal. I also drop the 11th string to C# on 2 different levers, to give me bass notes on the C# and C# minor chords.
I have the missing D note on a knee lever.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jeffrey McFadden
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 7:00 pm Joe Wright plays one
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I particularly enjoy Joe Wright's blues and rock pedal steel. Like it says in my signature, I don't play what I'm supposed to. I started on lap steel because my hands were too crippled to play 6 string anymore, and found out I loved it better than I'd ever loved 6 string, and that led to the pedal steel, and so forth. But anyway - here's Joe's copedent, off his website. He says, "I approach this guitar as one big instrument with lots of possibilities," and that's what it looks like to me. I wouldn't be thinking of it as "an E9" and "a B6," I'd just think where I could find the notes I needed.
My D10 is currently set up E9 and A6 (it came that way.) If I can without breaking strings I'm going to raise the A6 neck to B6 so I can start living with the two tunings on one surface in front of me, double neck notwithstanding. I think I could learn useful things on the way.
I play a celtic harp. It has 33 strings. I like lots of strings. U-12 sounds great.
_________________
Well up into mediocrity
I don't play what I'm supposed to.
Home made guitars |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2018 7:58 pm Re: Joe Wright plays one
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| 12 strings and 45 pitch changes, plus 24+ frets. Wow thatĆ¢ā‚¬ā„¢s a lotta choices. I have trouble with paper or plastic sometimes. |
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James Winger
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 7:53 am Re: Joe Wright plays one
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| 12 strings and 45 pitch changes, plus 24+ frets. Wow thatĆ¢ā‚¬ā„¢s a lotta choices. I have trouble with paper or plastic sometimes. |
Reminds me of "The Moon Moth" by Jack Vance (1961)
"The quarter-tone tuning of the instruments admitted the use of twenty-four tonalities, which multiplied by the five modes in general use, resulted in one hundred and twenty separate scales. Kershaul, however, advised that Thissell primarily concentrate on learning each instrument in its fundamental tonality, using only two of the modes. " |
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James Winger
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 8:10 am
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Mr Perlowin;
I've been listening to your FBS for 20 years
(whew, glad I caught my typo, I almost dropped the F in FBS - that would have not been so good)
One thing I find unfortunate about the PSG is that, like an underappreciated actor with a breakout role, I think it has, to an extent, become type-cast. So I think it's really cool people like you will put the instrument in other contexts |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 9:03 am
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Thank you James. I appreciate your kind words about my stuff. Since we're talking about copedants and setups, I must mention that almost everything on the CD was done on my version of the E9 side of my U-12. I did re-tune my 7th string to E to play the imitation harp parts on Afternoon of a Faun. Aside from that, Everything else is E9.
The late great Al Vescovo, who only played C6 once teased me about playing "the hillbilly tuning. "I answered him by calling it the Mozart tuning.
Here is my current copedant. The W is the wrist lever.
BTW, I made 2 more CDs, and I feel that both of them came out better than FBS. I think my Spanish Steel CD is my ultimate achievement. You can hear some stuff from all 3 CDs at the web sites in my signature.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 9:44 am
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I know that only .00001% of the Steel population uses it, but anyone going from C6 non pedal to pedal should always at least consider Maurice AndersonĆ¢ā‚¬ā„¢s Bb6 Uni, a fantastic tuning, in my opinion...
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 1:15 pm
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| Rick Abbott wrote: |
Could that be because they started playing before the U12, or were influenced by people who became Pros before the U12?
Tradition is very influential in making choices. The U12 is not traditional in the truest respects.
I love the idea of the Uni. I hate the two lowest strings. I've have 2 U12 guitars and prefer a D10, only for the 10 strings. I love the Uni idea. My goal is to have an S10 Uni someday. Which is not very hard to do...unless you want a new Sierra Which I do. |
Precisely the reason that I play a D10. If I was starting out today, I would most likely go with a U12.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 2:37 pm
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| Rick Abbott wrote: |
| I love the idea of the Uni. I hate the two lowest strings. I've have 2 U12 guitars and prefer a D10, only for the 10 strings. I love the Uni idea. My goal is to have an S10 Uni someday. Which is not very hard to do...unless you want a new Sierra Which I do. |
I'm getting pretty near everything from my 10-string Sierra tuned to D6th. Click Copedents to see how it's done.
_________________
-š¯•“š¯•†š¯•“- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 3:46 pm
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"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice - in practice there is" Yogi Berra.
With that as a prelude, I will say that, in theory, I really love the idea of U-12. In practice, I did not.
Short answer: 12 strings significantly increased the odds of me hitting a clam - in theory, the increase would only be 20%, but in practice... see the above quote."
Long answer:
"ONE BIG TUNING". My feet could not hit the B-pedal, rock onto the A, then find pedal 8 for a boo-wah with any consistency. In fact, I have concluded my klutz-factor allows me 4 pedals only (and thus, 8 with a double-neck). So I moved pedal 5 to a knee lever (thanks Lane) and now can find the right pedal more often than not.
"All copedents are a compromise." Indeed. But, if you attempt to mash two different tunings into one, there are lots of conflicts as to which lever goes where! I honestly think some wise soul will some day soon come up with a tuning that does what the two tunings do without so many compromises - by drastically rethinking the whole thing. But I found the compromises of U-12 frustrating. I switched to D-10 where I could put the changes for each neck where I wanted them without it interfering with the other tuning.
But ultimately, see the short answer above: I just get lost with 12 strings way more often than I do with 10.
So, in short, it might work for you. It did not work for me. I fully realize it works fine for others.
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Feb 2018 5:41 pm
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James, the first PSG I got my hands on happened to be a D10 so I started on that but I'm not sure it matters. You can start on whatever comes your way, as you're not going to learn everything all at once. The point about the Uni is that you can play E9 stuff or C6 stuff, so you can use the teaching materials for either or both.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 26 Feb 2018 2:08 am
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| I've been playing a U-12 for about 12 years now and I like it a lot. The band I play in does mostly 75% country tunes, so, I usually stick to the E-9th side. But, for the rest, we play Western swing type songs. For those, I like to play the 6th tuning. However, I will switch in mid song to both phrasings just to change it up a bit. I'm also the only lead instrument, so, I like to vary my playing accordingly. I tried playing a D-10 and couldn't get comfortable reaching out over the inside neck. The U-12 fits me perfectly. My tuning is the basic Jeff Newman U-12 tuning, but, with ABC pedals not CBA pedals. My E lower lever is RKR and is quite easy to engage and hold in. |
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