2ng stg d to C# lower

chuck abend · From: Kansas City,Mo.64155 U.S.A.

What is the C# used for on the second stg lower;
What intro or lick is it used for
Chuck

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

https://youtu.be/FF77kLhPy7U

Hereâ€™s an example key of E
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Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

One of the signature moves with the 2nd string whole tone lower is when you use it with the 5th string A pedal raise. When you release them both, the unison splits into a major 3rd interval. Very cool move to use for a 1 to 2 change, and it also works on a 4 to 5.
Check out this intro by Tom Brumley on Rosie Flores' "God May Forgive You".
The unison to major 3rd move is the first thing you'll hear on the intro. You hear the same move again right before the 1st verse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYV0SCWiW5s

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

With A&B down, you can use it to get the unison sound that Weldon Myrick had on the Connie Smith song "I Can't Remember". (A lot of players thought that sound came from double-tracking.)

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

I use it on the Swinging Doors intro... The Hag!

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Chuck , think of it this way. when we play Piano or Guitar we move a finger to create a new note for mood or expression or even a substitution chord. Maybe even part of an ascending or descending phrase.

Now look at that 2nd string lever again. It's a great question but it's no different than asking a guitar player or piano player to move his or her finger.

If you have the 2nd string raise on your Steel, also fairly common, you now have 4 notes available on a single string, the raise, the natural and the double lower. The opportunities are immense

BUT

seat time and proper study is the key , not necessarily licks . Licks are great as long as we break them down into " what the heck am I playing ".

How long does it take to learn this stuff ? Can't say, some people never stop learning even though they are already masters.

here'a track I recently did using two occurrences of the 2nd string lower from two different positions, both having a similar but different phrasing leading into the verse.

First occurrence at .10 seconds and .30 seconds , 2nd different occurrence at 1:10

Hope this helps with some insight

http://www.tprior.com/no%20one%20will%20ever%20know.mp3
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Jim Park · From: Carson City, Nv

Hereâ€™s an example of the whole tone lower on the second string in an intro I did awhile back. https://youtu.be/V7Q_Mjrn4L4 hereâ€™s another, https://youtu.be/NxvTIe4x6BY This is the unison note on the 2nd and 5th that Skip is talking about.

Michael Meader · From: Michigan, USA

Hi folks, i have a question regarding the tuning of this particular lever move. On my LDG it is the RKR. When i try to hit the mid stop position to make a D, its seems to not be a very firm positive stop, a bit loose in its feel. So its abit difficult to hit that exact tuning consistantly. Is there an adjustment that can be made to firm it up? Or perhaps does it need a new spring?

And actually i havent even progressed to really using that lever yet, only been at it almost 5 months. Just would like to learn. Thanks, Mike

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I've never been able to hit that "feel stop" properly, so I always put the C# somewhere else. I used to have it on a separate knee lever. Right now it's on a pedal to the left of my A pedal.

The D note is much more useful than the C#, in my opinion. It's a scale note in the V chord position, and absolutely required in the B+C+D position (major chord 2 frets up from the I chord). It simply must stop in tune. That's why I always put the C# somewhere else.

The famous "Touch My Heart" intro uses strings 2 and 5, both starting at C#. They are released together, splitting the unison into a major third. It's a very cool trick that no other instrument can do. I've been told that it was originally done with a pedal lowering string 2 to C# right next to the A pedal, making for a very easy and smooth transition. That's how my guitar is set up.

The 2nd string D# to C# change is mostly used for specific country legacy licks. You can see this in the responses above. The C# note is always available on the 5th string with the A pedal. For that reason, I always think of the 2nd string C# as an "optional" change - nice to have, very cool, but not really necessary unless you need to copy songs that use it.

Just my opinion, obviously. Most people use the half-stop method.
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I agree with bOb's comments on the importance of the half tone lower on the second string. It is far more important than the lower to C#. I've never used a feel stop than I could reliably hit to get the D pitch. It's okay if you are playing slow passages and have time to listen to the intonation, but if you are trying get on and off that lever quickly it's too much of a crap shot.

Like bOb I have tried using a separate lever for the C# pitch. There are some mildly interesting things it offers, but everything's a trade-off and I currently don't have the C# drop at all. I don't really miss it. That unison split can be replicated with a bar slant. It just takes a bit of practice. Plus that lick is fairly gimmicky and gets old real fast.

I think the standard E9 copedent would be better off if it didn't have a feel stop on the second string, and didn't lower to C#. The C# lower is simply not useful enough to justify it's place on a 3x4 or 3x5 copedent. There are more useful options. Plus the half tone lower of the second string is much more useful if it's has a solid stop rather than a feel stop.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Run down to the local hardware shop and go to the spring section, two things you can do, find a spring the same length that is twice as firm or add an additional one to what you have on the 9th string.

If you firm up the lower on the 9th that will firm up your half stop feel on the 2nd string. Thatâ€™s the simplest most economical fix.
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Franklin · Posted 25 Feb 2018 2:07 pm

Here is a way around the half stop to play the counterpoint lick.

Hit strings 2 and 5 with the 2nd string lowered a whole tone with pedal A at the 3rd fret.....

Slide back to the 2nd fret and release the 2nd lower and keep the A pedal down....This gives the 1/2 tone release move

Now to finish the counterpoint slide back to the 3rd fret and release the A pedal.
Paul

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Paul: You are so adept at bar slant, why not just ditch the whole tone lower? You can play the same lick. Admittedly it sounds a bit different, but the notes are the same. Have you ever considered dropping the whole tone lower?
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Franklin · Posted 25 Feb 2018 4:43 pm

Paul,
Its good you all are talking about this change....That change is not a throw away. Within my playing there is so much single note and triadic chordal bending that could not be played with bar slants....Unison resolves are where all of the slight of hand moves come from. I have unisons all over my copedant.

.....For an example of something you can't do any other way....

Key of G
5th fret- lower 2nd a whole with B&C pedals hit chord grouping strings 2/4/6
now slide back to the 3rd fret and release the lever keeping B&C down without picking and then lower the 2nd again and then no pedals and play a G on strings 4 5 6.

Also the 2nd lowered a whole gives an E6th voicing that doesn't exist in the open position giving more..In my opinion that lower opens up the tuning from the typical.
Paul

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks Paul. I just reinstalled the lower to C# on a second knee lever, on my all pull guitar. It has more uses than I remembered. Maybe I should give it more time.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I, too, am getting a little weary of the weakness of the half-stop at D, but am unwilling to give up the C#, I find it more useful than the D.
Unfortunately, when someone wanted to know how to play the intro to "The Way I Am" in D at the 12th fret (so I could do it behind the bar, because I think that's a cool effect for that figure), I ended up just tuning to D.
I'm also not interested in giving up any of my current changes.
I'm pondering either a front LKL, front LKR, or an additional pull on P8 so I can right-foot the D note.

BTW, Jimmy Crawford, Terry Bethel and others tune 2 to D, and have one lever going to D# and another to C# (Terry goes to C# on the same lever as the whole tone drop of 6).
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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

This is very interesting to me. It seems that John Hughey (who we are basing my copedent on loosely) separated these also. He had the C# lower on LKL2, and the D lower (along with a raise to G on the 7th) on RKL. I'll have to see if we are doing this.

chuck abend · From: Kansas City,Mo.64155 U.S.A.

OK guys Here's a neat 1 1/2 tone raise to B 6th stg.
How about raising the 6th stg to B with a knee lever
in unison with stg 5 B. A lot easier ,I thonk and it
sounds about the same ,in my opinion
I added it to LKV with stgs 1 and 2 raise
I noticed buddy Emmons had this on his LKV lever
also. Chuck

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

here's a track using two occurrences of the 2nd string full tone lower from two different positions, both having a similar but different phrasing leading into the verse. The 5 chord leading to the 1 chord.

First occurrence at .10 seconds and .30 seconds , 2nd different occurrence at 1:10

Hope this helps with some insight

http://www.tprior.com/no%20one%20will%20ever%20know.mp3

There are many ways to do similar occurrences at different positions on the fret board, each will have a different feel and tonality.

here's the tab for the two occurrences above , maybe this is a starting point. Like anything else, be it piano, Guitar or Steel,knowing the various fret board positions and what our peds and levers offer is what is most important . I don't think we plan this stuff, it just kinda happens as we become more familiar with our fret board.

Me , I stink at slants so I lean towards these types of redundant things all the time. Sad

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CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I've always thought that the unison splitting lick(s) made easy by this lever are vastly over-rated. I think it's mostly other steel players that are impressed by the novelty of it. The unison passes so quickly you hardly notice it.

However, there are some other things the C# lower provides that seem more substantial. I'll have to work with it for another six months or more to finally decide if it stays.

Right now I basically have the John Hughey set-up on my guitar, with one lever lowering to D, and another lever on the other leg lowering to C#. Both levers also do other changes to lower strings. Seems like a pretty good copedent.
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Tim Herman · From: Alberta, Canada

The first steel I ever had access to had the 2nd tuned to D. I have never known another way. This led to finding some moves with D lowering to C#, raising RKL a 1/2 to D#, and all the way to E.
Here is an example of what could be played with that setup. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-0sP2ouUkA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

find a way to get both the half stop and full tone, some guitars do this much better than others, they are not equal when it comes to the half stop. Both notes are very valuable.

It's much like learning the A Pedal half pedal move, something which is common .

Here , I modified one of my previous Carters with an added spring , a small rod and a bracket, under $5 in parts . Very stiff stop. The concept was modeled after a famous brand no longer making guitars.

The two Steels I own now have a very positive half stop from the manufacturer. Sure it's easy to float right by it but it's also real easy for us to have the bar slightly off fret and play out of tune. It's part of the journey. Playing without it is like a guitar player missing a finger on his or her right hand.

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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

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