Which Hole?

Jon James · From: Durham, NC, USA

Here's my question. On the newer triple raise/triple lower guitars, there are 6 holes at the changer and like 8 or 9 holes at the rod puller. I think it is a good idea to put the rod as high up on the puller as possible to maximize the axis of rotation, and thus minimize pedal travel. For the strings that don't have a lower, is it a bad idea to put the raise in one of the higher holes on the rod puller, even though it puts the rod at an angle? Or is it better for the changer hole and the rod puller hole to be the same plane, so the rod is perpendicular to the guitar? Now I am not talking about an extreme angle, just maybe 1 or 2 holes higher than it would be to make it parrel to the guitar. Is this a horrible idea altogether, or is this something everyone else already does? I really have no idea. Maybe I should just stick with my Professional that only has 2 holes. Not much choice there. Thanks.

Oh ya, as my wife was reading this over my shoulder she wanted me to remind everyone to keep the responses clean.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The positions in the changer and on the rod puller are a balance between travel distance and force. Some people prefer short, stiff pedal action while others prefer light, long action. Guitars with a a lot of holes in the changer and rod puller allow you to tailor the action to your preference.

Here are the two rules:

1. On the rod puller, the hole or slot that is closest to the crossbar has the easiest but longest pull.

2. On the changer, the opposite is true. The hole that is highest has the shortest pull, and requires the most force.

Usually a combination that requires an angled rod can also be accomlished without the angle. Example: my Sierra has rod pullers with 4 slots and 3 changer holes for raises. I could set up a pedal to go from hole A (the highest) to slot 4 and it would be a radical slant on the rod. I can get exactly the same leverage using puller slot 3 with changer hole B, or using puller slot 2 with changer hole C. (Yes, exactly the same - Sierras are designed that way!)

I tend to prefer the more parallel rod configurations.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 07 May 2005 at 09:48 AM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Where the pull rods go is not arbitrary. It depends on the particular pull (travel) and the optimum leverage.

My Franklin is 23 years old and I've never had to move a rod from the optimum setup as it came from the factory (I don't change things, all the floor pedals and 4 of the 5 knee levers are like they were when it came from the factory).

Jon James · From: Durham, NC, USA

Thanks Bobby, I am having trouble seeing how your points 1 and 2 are opposite. can you explain a little further. In 2) do you mean highest when the guitar is standing up?, or upside down? Furthest from the axal or closest?

When you say you get the same leverage, are you implying also that you get the same pedal travel?

Thanks

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Consider an important function of the leverage options---to allow simultaneous pulls (such as strings 5 & 10, 3 & 6 on E9) to begin and end their pulls at the same time, IOW to maintain your unisons. Being of different gauges and tensions, the two strings will likely require different hole choices. The rest of your choices are striclty personal preferences of light/heavy, long/short pulls.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

I like Jon LIght's note, to which I will add that at least for me, matching pedal travel on the half-step and whole-step pulls also factors into the equation.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The Sierra manual names the changer holes from top to bottom A B C D E, with A being the one closest to the top of the guitar. The guitar is triple raise, double lower: A B and C are the raise holes, D and E are the lower holes.

The same Sierra manual numbers the rod puller slots 1 2 3 4, The number 1 slot is the highest slot, the one closest to the crossbar.

So, what I'm saying is this: you get the same result (distance traveled and force required for the pull) whether you use A-4, B-3 or C-2.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

On many all pulls, the 2nd string lower and the 9th string lower are on the same knee lever and they use the 9th string as the "feel" stop for the 2nd string 1/2 tone lower. You need to have the pull rods in the right locatins to do this, tho.

I have a friend with a Sho-Bud that he had to do a lot of work on to get it playable. He put the pull rods back in the slots they were in when he got the guitar (used) and he had some problems with tuning some of them. I gave him the rodding chart for my Franklin and he tried it in the Sho-Bud and surprisingly it worked well and the pedals are as easy or maybe even easier to mash than my Franklin.

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Jon,

on the Carter pedal steel guitar websiteyou'll find the "Steel Guitar Information Resource" which has a lot on invaluable tips, including a chapter on rodding. There is an article on "Rodding Theory", as well as standard rodding charts for E9, C6 and U12. You can use the blank rodding chart to write down your individual setup for later reference.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, '70 Emmons D-10 8+4, '69 Emmons S-10 6+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, '73 Sho~Bud LDG 3+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400, Line 6 Variax 700

Jon James · From: Durham, NC, USA

Thanks for the responses guys. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing any damage by setting the pull rods at an angle. I ended up tightening most of my changes though for now, but I am sure I will be making some modifications in the future.

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Well, maybe I'm wrong then. Sorry if I misled anyone.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Given Hans' comment, I have doubts that my understanding of leverages is correct. I'll simply quote from the Sierra manual:

quote:
Changer: raise holes are rows A, B, & C. Row 'B' is easier to pull than row 'A', but it also requires more movement to move a string a given distance than does row 'A'.

Lower holes: 'E' is easier than 'D', but does not pull as quickly.

Bell crank: slot 1, that nearest the cross shaft, is the easiest but longest pull. As you move upwards, slots 2, 3 and 4 become progressively stiffer but quicker;

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bobby-Your explanation from the Sierra Manual is easily understandable. It even gave me a better idea of how the Mechanicals work....Thanks...al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Speaking just from the experience I've had owning (3)-Franklins, there are some puller, rod, changer combinations that are just not practical! Say for instance you have a certain string Raising on your RKR or RKL and you put the Rod in the top-hole on the changer and the bottom-hole on the puller. This blocks you from inserting any other rods into the changer if you wish to make any other change to that same string on another KL or Pedal ahead of that RKR. You would have to wind around that rod with your 2nd. rod! The most change in leverage is on the bellcrank position. On most PSG’s there is not much noticeable difference in which hole is used in the changer. To get an idea which pull-rods might deserve slightly more leverage (shorter~travel) after the pedal is tuned, push the pedal slowly and see which string begins to move first. Then drop that rod (1)-notch farther away from the body on the puller or raise the other pull-rod (1)-notch on the other string. It depends on whether you want ‘less’ overall travel or the ‘same’.
Thanks, The “Think~Tank”
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 31 July 2005 at 10:19 PM.]

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

Based on the Sierra manual excerpt provided by Bobby, I can see that the easier (longer) pulls occur at the point furthest from the body on the changer end ("down" when the steel is in playing position), and at the point closest to the body on the bell crank, or puller end.

The examples furnished earlier in this topic suggest to me that changes in the hole position in the changer in a downward direction would be equivalent to changes in the bell crank (puller) in an upward direction.

However, John Bechtel's experience indicates that changes in the bell crank (puller) positions are more dramatic than in the changer.

John also expresses a disliking for pull rods that cross at a changer.

So, to avoid the puller rods crossing , one should use somewhat parallel rodding.

Here is a perhaps extreme example of parallel rodding, using Sierra changer & puller identifications.

A - 1
B - 2
D - 3
E - 4

According to John's experience, A - 1 would be an easier (longer) raise than B - 2, all other things being equal.

Similarly, D - 3 would be an easier (longer) lower than E - 4, all other things being equal.

Am I understanding this theory, and experience correctly?

David Doggett · Posted 1 Aug 2005 12:24 pm

I agree with John, on all of the all-pulls I have had, the hole used on the changer has very little effect on the pedal action, and it is best to choose the hole that works best with the other rodding on that finger. But the hole used on the bell crank has a dramatic effect. On push/pulls this is not true. The hole used on the changer finger also has a dramatic effect on pedal action.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Here’s an example of what is probably necessary when raising one string (2)-times, such as the 5th string B to C# on P-1 and P-3. (Emmons’ Setup) On P-1, the Pull~rod could be in hole #3 on the bellcrank and hole #2 on the changer. On P-3, the Pull~rod could be in hole #2 on the bellcrank and hole #1 on the changer. That’s how it is on my Derby. If you do it different you’ll probably be crossing pull~rods! You can connect them exact~opposite, but; the travel probably won’t be the most desireable! Sometimes it’s ‘trial & error’, but; not for the builder with experience! It’s always wise to have the builder if possible or someone with past experience to work on your instrument and pay very closest attention for future changes! That’s how most people learn how! IMHO!?

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

The extreme angle from Bellcrank to Changer does no harm. The Pull~Rod angle through the hole in the Changer is corrected about 1” ahead of the Changer by a slight angle in the Pull~Rod so that it goes straight through the hole in the changer.The hole in the Bellcrank usually takes care of itself, if it clears other rods on it’s way to the Changer!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

Bryan,

your description states the relation between changer hole position and bell crank position correctly, but your example is backwards.

changer end (raises):
A=closest to changer axle
B=middle hole
C=farthest from changer axle

bell crank:
1=closest to cross shaft
2
3
4=farthest from cross shaft

The easiest pull, requiring the longest travel is C/1.
The stiffest and shortest pull is A/4.

Other combinations fall in between.

The same goes for lowers. The Sierra only has a double lower capability: holes D and E.
E/1 = long and soft
D/4 = short and stiff

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, '70 Emmons D-10 8+4, '69 Emmons S-10 6+5, Fender Artist D-10 8+4, '73 Sho~Bud LDG 3+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD, Peavey Vegas 400, Line 6 Variax 700

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 02 August 2005 at 02:56 AM.]

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

Rainer -

I understand your examples. You are illustrating the extremes of easy versus stiff pulls. What I was trying to get to was along the lines of what John Bechtel is illustrating 2 messages up. He spoke of avoiding crossing the rods, and that was what my question was getting at. If you reread my question, I was looking at rodding that is somewhat parallel to the guitar body. I'm trying to understand the theory as it relates to these parallel setups.

I change my rodding with a lot of trial and error, and I would prefer to understand what I am attempting to do.

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

To complicate the matter further

I made a little chart http://homepage.hispeed.ch/updowncat/rodtravel.htm that provides numbers proportional to pull rod travel by dividing finger levers by bell crank levers. The chart is only an example using mm as length unit but you'll have to measure and fill in your own inch or mm numbers on the top 4 lines. On hitting the return key the chart is being updated. Measurements are always from center of axle to center of hole. In the chart, low numbers mean short travel/hard action, high numbers long travel/soft action. This is for those who want to know what to expect before experimenting at random. In the chart you can see that similar numbers run on lines slightly declining from top left to bottom right.

Edited to add that the numbers are proportional to rod travel GIVEN a specific amount of stretching of the string, i.e. pitch change.

Hans

PS: For players of LeGrande and Excel guitars I'll extend the chart at no additional cost

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 03 August 2005 at 06:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 03 August 2005 at 06:50 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 3 Aug 2005 5:51 am

Brian, the full range of combinations of changer holes and bell crank holes may not be available practically, because of the crossing rods problem with multiple pulls on the same finger. The practical way to rod with an all-pull is to ignore the minimal effect the changer hole has (as mentioned by John B.) and concentrate on choosing the best hole at the bell crank, which has by far the most influence on travel and stiffness. Once you know the right hole on the bell crank, you choose the hole in the changer that works best without interfering with other pulls on the same finger. The more pulls there are on the same finger, the more difficult it is to work this out. Universals are the biggest challenge, because of all the pulls for both necks going to the same changer.

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

David -

Now that makes sense. You've furnished a logical step-by-step procedure for going from a specific starting point, at the bell crank, to the next step, which is to juggle between best hole at the changer while avoiding or minimizing cross-overs.

Thank you. That is much better than my method of simply flipping things back and forth at both the bell crank and changer 'til everything feels good.

As you & John both pointed out, knowing that the bell crank makes the most significant change in travel stiffness certainly will help me in logically plotting out what steps to take in rodding.

Hans - I'll try your chart. I believe that it will give me some very specific travel/action ratios, which then must be viewed with respect to additional pulls on that finger, and the potential for cross-overs, as indicated by David.

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

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