Long and slow vs.short and fast...

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

First off, get those dirty little minds out of the gutter!... We're discussing steel guitar action... NOT your romantic encounters.

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I am faced with adapting to a guitar with a soft but pretty "elongated" action compared to what I am used to.

My old Williams is now complete and playing and sounding VERY sweet. It isn't a major problem, but my Carter has "hair trigger" action.. light,quick and short.. THATS how I like it... The first guitars I can recall being able to play that way were MSA.. and I ALWAYS played them until I got my Carter.

The Williams is a bit different. It really cannot get the super soft, "hair trigger" action I like. Everything is smooth,accurate,and PERFECTLY functional,but it is still a very different feel..

When you use your A pedal for example, its a smooth, soft stretch and has a nice "pedal steely" sound.. The Carter, you breathe on the pedal,it goes down a quarter inch and you're at c#.Instantly.. THAT is what I'm used to. The Williams CAN get quicker throws, but to do that would also stiffen them.. I DO NOT like stiff.. I WILL keep the Willy as she is.. Soft and longer throws in both the knees and pedals..

There is a point I am trying to make. I would like input,either here or mail me if you like, from guys that have TWO or more steels that they use interchangeably.. with VERY different feel/action..

In the past, I would ALWAYS try to get steel B to play and feel exactly like steel A.. It has NEVER worked out.
If you play two VERY differnt feeling steels,kindly share your thoughts on what physical adjustments you need to make,licks you can and cannot play etc..
I really want to make this work..

Years past,my PRO III didn't feel like my MSA, so it sat for years,unplayed mostly until I sold it to buy another "hair trigger" guitar.. the Carter. I had The Carter set up to BE a hair trigger guitar, because thats how my MSA's were set up.

I want to play BOTH these steels,interchangably,, but they do feel very different... Please let me know how you guys approach this minor dillema... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 14 July 2005 at 07:39 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Unless you have helper springs, there will always be a tradeoff between travel distance and force. It's basic physics. Shorter action requires more force to do the same amount of work.

I've never had a guitar with helper springs. Seems to me that they'd be tricky to adjust, but what do I know.

Is everything on the Williams lubed up good? Friction is another force working against you. My Williams pedals are plenty easy to push.

There's a little trick on the Williams: the gap in the connector where the pedal rod meets the pedal should face forward. Otherwise you get added resistance at the end of the pedal travel. It's a quirk that Bill has addressed in his newest guitars by connecting to the side of the pedal instead of to the top, but you and I need to be aware of it. He changed the design right after he built mine!!

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jul 2005 7:27 am

Bob, I have my Zum uni setup for shorter-stiffer action. My Emmons uni push/pull has longer-softer action, what I would consider medium. I sort of like having the different options to choose from. The way I deal with the difference is to always practice a little beforehand with the guitar I will use for a gig. I actually have the same problem with shoes. If I practice with a shoe with one shape of sole (sneakers), and then play a gig with another shape of sole, I sometimes start out playing a little out of tune, because I am not getting the pedals all the way down to the stop. Is this a tricky instrument or what?!

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

b0b is right, look to see if the Carter has raise helper springs, maybe the Willy doesn't

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I, too, like to keep the pedal travel short and fast, with the exception of the "A" pedal. I like to have the travel a bit longer on that pedal. It makes it easier to "half pedal" and get a half step raise.

Lee, from South Texas

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Good post-Bob.
I have not seen any helper springs on my Carters. But you can adjust the action on them in many ways to get what you want.

Bob-I did find the action on the Williams I had once, to be different than other guitars I have played. It is very easy action like you said.

But , all in all, I think a tech. could set up any action you wanted on most guitars these days.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Yes, I have the same issue. My BMI has an easy, short throw, but the others stiffen up more for a short throw. Like David, I need to warm up for quite a while when changing guitars, especially when moving to the longer or stiffer throw. I guess I've gotten used to that, although it's not ideal, IMO.

As I am gradually picking up speed, I do definitely notice that a longer or stiffer throw affects my ability to execute faster licks. There's a limit on how hard any given person can press the pedal. The time required to make a pull is proportional to the speed at which it's changed times the distance needed to make the change. So, roughly speaking, the product of the throw and stiffness sets a fundamental limit on how fast a particular player can make a change. At my stage of the game, it's probably not a big deal, but I can see why more experienced and faster players want the featherlight/short throw. Conversely, someone who restricts themselves to slower, smoother licks might be as happy or more with a heavier/longer throw. And I suppose that others develop the muscles enough to raise their pedal pressure limit.

Of course, the copedent matters here a lot. My two Sierras have exactly the same mechanics, but the S-14U is loaded up a lot more than the S-10, and the loaded up pulls have a proportionally stiffer action.

I honestly doubt that any of my guitars have the easy short throw of your Carter. The few that I've played had extremely precise and easy action. You may just be spoiled by the Carter, and have to sell that Willy to me.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

b0b.... I'm not unhappy with the Willy and trying to get it to play like the Carter.. quite the contrary.. I may have over elaborated.. as usual!!

..

I want to know about how guys make the needed adjustments to deal with steels that are VERY different in feel.. I did an afternoon gig on the Willy today and it sounded lovely.. Played well too, BUT the longer throws had me a little "pitchy", as my body needed to adjust.. I'm programmed to "instant" note changing... Its almost like I have to adapt to a "time lag" with the longer throws.

To be fair, what My friened Dave said is correct. The Carter is freakish in how short, quick,and precise the mechanism is... Almost every steel I have played is "slow and stretchy" in comparison.. I consider that a GOOD thing.... I am pretty adaptable... I hope. I seem to be down just a tad on speed and need to be a littlke more careful in "timing" my pedal movement if that makes any sense... anyway,If you need to make physical adjustments when going from one beloved steel to another, I'm interested in hearing about it!! bob

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I sort of agree with Bobby, it's all a trade-off. The only way to have easy/fast movements would be to have helper springs on most every raise and lower. I'm not sure that's necessary, as it's just one more adjustment that must be made and monitored. Most guitars nowadays have a lot of leverage possibilities, so given time, you can make any change easy or quick...but not necessarily both. Other things enter into the equation, too. Different pedal lengths, shapes, and their height makes them feel different when they may not be measurably different. Different lower-return springs in the changer can make a decided difference. Most are heavier than they need to be, and adjusting a heavy spring out will never make it feel like a lighter spring. Additionally, string length, guages and even your footwear make a big difference, too!

The quickest changer (least pedal movement) by far was the old Fender cable job, and it had no adjustments at all.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've gradually come to the conclusion that switching guitars frequently isn't a real good idea. I play better if I stay with one guitar. I get to know it really well. That's why my Sierra has been in the case for the past 6 months.

Maybe Mrs. Lee is right when she says "You don't need another steel guitar."

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I say accept them for what they are.
You'll soon get used to your new baby.

You'll never get a Strat to play like a Tele, that's why many players own both. No one is better, just different.

I never owned a Willie, but I do own PSGs that have a very different feel. ( Carter and Emmons Push Pulls)

I accept them for what they are, make sure they're setup perfectly, and we're all happy.

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

Bob, I have most of my pedals set for a short throw, with exception of the B to C# raise. I use a half pedal A LOT on the 5th string.
I am sure you have checked to see which changer hole the rods are connected to. You won't have the option of using the top hole in the changer fingers for all the pedals but you can use as many top holes as possible.
Now you have given away some of your physical and personality traits. You are definitely a "short and fast" person, hahaha. .............. JD

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

John.. That's what mrs. Carlucci has been saying to me for years.. but I still don't know why!

... bob

Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

Bob, when I got my Carter, I wanted the action to be soft/short like on my Schild, so I added raise helper springs to the Carter. Now I know some people will say that the Carter doesn't 'need' that kind of tinkering... Actually, the Carter is now just a bit softer but a bit longer than the Schild. Further adjustment is limited by the number of holes in the bell cranks. Anyway, what I want to say is that you might consider the same for the Williams. I don't know if it's possible to hook up helper springs, but it was quite easy on the Carter.

Hans

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Just a word of caution. If your guitar uses helper~springs, you don't want them on strings that Lower. Only on strings that strictly Raise! When Lowering, a string will Lower farther and faster, w/o a helper~spring trying to pull in the opposite direction!

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“Big John” Bechtel
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Hans Holzherr · From: Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland

While I agree with John that a hooked up lower will rule the helper spring situation, it is in no way prohibitive. I have a helper spring on each of my 12 strings (E9th/B6th universal tuning), and none of them is slack.

Hans

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