C6th Tuning - When did standard emerge?

Guest · Posted 15 Jun 2004 2:51 am

In his book, Winnie Winston describes what we all would recognize as the standard C6th copedent. That was in 1975 and I'm wondering when this standard first emerged. I'm also curious to know how it developed, that is, did it start out with fewer pedals and then grow or was it unified copedent from the beginning? Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Stephen-We all pretty much know that Jerry Byrd might have started usning the C6 on a non-pedal guitar.

But I like to think that Alvino Rey started the E 6th tuning in 1939 with all the pulls on it that the C6 has now.

There was more string breakage in the old days on E6 and you couldnt't get a 3rd above(G#) let alone a 5th(B) above.

So a lot of guys used A6 which was too low and compromised and took Jerry's C6 and put pedals on it, which was the logical thing to do........al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

this should help along: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003342.html http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006308.html

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 15 June 2004 at 08:36 AM.]

KENNY KRUPNICK · From: Columbus, Ohio

Pedals 5 & 6 are your "home" pedals on C6th, just like your A & B pedals are home pedals on E9th.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Stephen,

As I stated in a post in one of the above links, pedal 5, 6 and 8 almost had to be derived from what Jerrty Bryd had done since the 30's. Here is the analogy.

Jerry was (and is) a master at the "split" slant. In that he often used the 9th chord:

E
C

F#

and 7th chord:

C
A

Eb

on his C6 tuning by using the split slant feature.

In addition, Jerry created the A7th/C6 tuning.

E
C
A
G
E
C#

Based on this AND the fact that both Jimmy Day and Buddy Emmons held Jerry in the highest of esteem, tells me without doubt (in my mind), pedals 5, 6 and 8 was a result of what Jerry had done.

Since that post, I now believe it WAS indeed Bob White who popularized the changes on the 7th pedal. Even though Alvino Rey may have had the change before, it was not used in the same style.

The thing that has always been a mystery to me is pedal 4. Who created it, and more importantly, why?

Now as to when the pedals were added, I have not a clue.

carl

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The 4th pedal is required to get E9th-sounding licks. Release P5 as you press P4 for a D to G change, similar to the E to A pedal stomp on E9th.

Maybe the 4th pedal came about because people were trying to imitate Bud Isaacs on early C6th pedal steels. Just a guess...

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I didn't mean to kill the discussion.

Guest · Posted 16 Jun 2004 2:31 pm

You didn't kill it, b0b. My threads have a tendency to die of natual causes. I'm just fascinated that the C6th tuning has such a long history, I think it's development should be documented. I'm going to make an effort at doing that.

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Mr & Mrs Stanley (Cleveland OH) had the OAHU
publishing co & Twin sons of a Pontiac dealer in NE Ohio came to me one time in Ashtabula to see if I could help them. They had a ton of Oahu tablature for A minor 7th,
which I guess is what they called it in Hawaii ??? (Same tuning!) I almost think they may have had a Gibson Electraharp, Al!

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Bobby Garrate used the 4th pedal on the C 6th using to play 9th chords.If i remember correctly,about 30 years ago Julian Thorup used the same pedal to do a neat intro to his instrumential,Lonely Street.The same thing can be done on the E 9th if one can raise there 4th string independtly.I have always used mine that way.I have my 9th and 10th strings reversed and raising the 9th independtly.With these two changes many C6th licks can be done on the E9th.Really doesn't matter but i was taught that way back before we had all the pedals.In fact before my self and some other steel players had any pedals.I was playing fiddle in a band and was getting intersted in the steel guitar.Our steel player showed me some things and used that inversion on a none pedal 8 string.I askd him what the heck that was and he said,oh,just one of those ignorant tunings.Some years later another great steel player showed me some good stuff on the E9th and had the 8th and 7th string reversed with the 7th tuned up to get a 6th chord.As i said before we didn't have all the pedals we have today.
I would sure hate to be starting out today with all the floor pedals and knee levers.>And raising the what would be on the 10th string to C# you play it like the C6h.Raise it and start in the 5th chord position down to the 4th and so on.I mostly name the strings as i tune to D9th instead of E and can get mixed up doing this in my head.Next thng i am going to work on is rmemebering how the old time steel players spelled their names.lol.Tracy

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Don't know when but two good reasons for P4 is
1: to get the 7th note. Change a C E G voicing to B E G same as lowering both E's on the E9 only on the C6 one has to skip a string to get the same effect.
2: to get a low 6th note or a high 13th note when used with P5.

It also gives some nice dissonance when playing melodies where lots of strings ring at the same time.

Bengt Erlandsen

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

I use that 4th pedal on C6 in this way. I only use the 4th string top pull and put it on a knee lever.

With the D on the 1st string, it gives me a CMaj7th9th. If you go half stop on this it gives a nice Straight C7th.

It also works real good with Pedal 5 and Pedal 6 and Pedal 8, then I hardlly ever have to use P7 near as much.

And I can keep my foot on the volume pedal a lot more.........al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

Bobbe Seymour, my nephew, (he can't help that!)uses the 4th pedal A to B raise more & differently than most. It gives him away everytime I hear him do it! He plays like Bobbe Seymour more than anyone else I can think of! Not a copy cat! Though he & I both love all the greats who have showed us all the way to better steelin' !

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

how can one get a 7th chord using pedal 4?

I am confused

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Half-pedal it, Carl.

Don Benoit · From: Okanagan Falls, BC

Instead of half pedalling the 4th and 8th why not raise both strings to A# instead of B. That would give a dominant 7th with the same string group instead of a major 7 chord. Major 7 chord is available with pedal 7 anyhow.

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http://www.steelguitar.ca

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

But not with that low voicing!

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

I see that this is a thread from last year, but I remember the first Fender 400 owner's manual I saw had a tuning chart showing Alvino Rey's A6 with pedals 5, 6 & 7. At the time I was playing C6 trying to cop Jerry Byrd licks and when I got a MultiKord, I transposed his ideas to C6 & used those 3 pedals. (5, 6 & 7) I added as pedal 1 both Cs raising to C# with E as my first string on my 6 string tuning, pedals 2, 3 & 4 being the 5, 6 & 7 of today. I gave up my volume pedal & sat sideways to use both feet on the pedals. The year was 1954 and Bobbe got my home-made Epiphone triple 8! I used to go from pedal 4 to pedal 1, moving the bar one fret at the same time to try & get the Isaacs E to A lick.

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

I can't give exact dates, however; in 1957, when I purchased my 1st. Sho-Bud D–8, pretty much the going setup was C6 = F_A_C_E_G_A_C_E and (3)-Pedals = 1st.-Raised C’s to C#’s, 2nd. was the P-5 change and 3rd. was the P-6 change, but; by ’60 it was revised to (9)-str. & (4)-Pedals and soon after that (5)-Pedals, with the advent of 10-strings. And finally (1)-Knee to Lower the 2nd. or 3rd. from (C) to (B). Maybe that's why I owned about 12 or 14 Sho-Buds, between ’57 and ’79! I never bought a pre~owned PSG, until about 10-wks. ago!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
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