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Topic: My MSA got here - unplayable, need help fast! |
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2005 8:26 pm |
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Well, the MSA Classic D10 8+4 is here. It looks in good physical shape, the electronics work....
But....
1)The 8 pedal nipple is in the lower hole (all the others are in the upper ones). The upper hole has a nipple piece that apparently sheared off. I THINK my mechanic has an easy-out he can remove it with - but should they be in the upper or lower holes? The old manual has some reference to pedal travel but notes another adjustment that has to be made, and the picture is very unclear.
2) This is driving me nuts. It was a tad flat on the 5th string pull on both the A and C pedals when it got here. If I tune the B string, then when I adjust either pull nut to C# it won't return to B pitch, and when I reset the B pitch the pedals won't bring it up all the way to C#. Eventually, it's adjusted so far in the A pedal does nothing at all.
I tried loosening the nuts all the way per the old MSA manual and starting over with tuning the string at the peg, but it just got worse. Now I can't even play the darned thing even slightly out of tune.
3) Hope that extension kit gets here soon, I can barely fit under the thing - and using a volume pedal is out of the question for now.
4) The LKL is right in line with the C pedal; the LKR is in line with the 5/6 pedals. Is that right? I can't see how to get my leg in there and actually press the A,C or C pedals individually. Maybe someone with size 3 feet could.
Suggestions? I don't have anywhere convenient to take it so I'm in this myself for now.
And I haven't even tuned the C6 neck yet.
Thanks
Jim
PS - This was supposedly just gone over by someone named Weaver who installed two extra knee levers (it was an 8+2 originally). Am I just not following instructions correctly or is there some little trick I just don't know? And how could someone installing parts AND doing setup and adjustment possibly miss a broken spring (I just noticed this - one od the little springs that wraps around each large rod) and a sheared nipple?
I don't get it. Item #2 above makes the instrument completely unplayable. I could sure use some advice. This is pretty pathetic.
[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 July 2005 at 10:49 PM.] |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2005 9:49 pm
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| Hi Jim- I sent you an e-mail- bring it down we'll fix it up in a jiffy~ |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 6:18 am
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Jim.. Don't worry .. it just sounds to me like your guitar just needs a restring and set up... Just about ANY used steel will.
No steel is easier to set up and get right than an MSA... Jim P will have that MSA humming in no time.
It sounds to me like you are very unfamiliar with pedal steels. .. Most of the things you mentioned are pretty basic.
I'm sure Jim will show you how to tune the stops and adjust pedal height etc,.. My advice is let Jim do this first set up,and let him show you how to make any sunsequent adjustments.
I think you will find that once this MSA is set up , it won't have to be done again for a VERY long time.... MSA guitars are vitually bullet proof. good luck with it... bob |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 6:35 am
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Bob - I had at least some minimal experience, having played a Maverick for about 6-7 years. Not a lot of difference in the rod or tuning nut arrangement, which is why this has me bugged - plus the fact that it was sold to me under the pretenses it was *just* set up and adjusted! Then it shows up NOT set up nor adjusted, with broken parts.
Jim's suggestion is good, but he's not anywhere near me, so I really need suggestions on how to get this thing up and running. It'll be a month before I can get down to where Jim is, and that's if he's open Sundays. |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 7:54 am
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1. The upper hole on MSA pedals is for the set screw that holds the pedal shaft in place. The ball end should NEVER be inserted in the upper hole unless you remove enough threads to seat the hex shoulder against the pedal surface. Breakage, such as you descibe, is the inevitable result.
2. You do not have enough pedal travel to tune the pull.
Read this: http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/adjustments/pedals_ss/sld002.htm
Loosen the nylon tuning nuts until the open string note does not change. Tune the keyhead to approximately B. Then back out the set screw that acts as a pedal stop in the front rail 1 or 2 turns. If you still can't get the 5th string to pull up and return properly, check the string gauge, replace if incorrect, and back out hte set screw another turn.
3. ok
4. When you sit behind the steel, sit with the center of your body on or above the 15th fret. You may also have to open up to the left a little. These 2 factors should line everything up so you can reach the pedals without having the knee levers get in the way.
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John Fabian
Carter Steel Guitars
www.steelguitar.com
www.steelguitarinfo.com
www.carterstarter.com
www.magnumsteelguitars.com[This message was edited by John Fabian on 06 July 2005 at 08:56 AM.] |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 8:22 am
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Thanks John, I'll take a look at those issues when I get home.
One thing though - the MSA Classic manual (I brought it to work) says to move the nipple to the hole closest to the pedal bar hole for more pedal travel, with a picture of moving the nipple to the upper hole (which is closer to the top of the guitar and the pedal bar, but further from the end of the pedal itself). Are you saying there's a set screw *INSIDE* that hole as well? The manual has nothing about such a screw, and the pictures are identical to my guitar.
So if I don't have enough pedal travel, I need to use the upper holes per the manual - but you say I shouldn't.(also, one or two of the pedals in question never even hit the end of the adjustment screw, which is an allen-wrench type. And it wasn't hitting the floor, either.)
All the other nipples are in the upper holes - so do I move them to the lower ones where #8 is now? Or do I have my machinist carefully do an "easy out" on the busted part, remove it, and move all the nipples to the upper holes for more pedal travel like the manual says? Or was MSA just wrong when they wrote this stuff?
PS - the adjustment nuts; half mine have a nylon end (like an extension), half seem to be just metal.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 July 2005 at 09:45 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 8:39 am
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| Jim, using the hole nearer the pedal-bar will give you a softer pedal, but cause more travel. Using the hole farther from the pedal-bar (the lower hole) will give you less travel, with more effort. How much travel you get in the pulling train (and at the string) is governed not only by these positions, but on the rest of the pulling train, and where the stop-screw is set as well. Make changes at the pedal only as a last resort (usually required when pulling 4 or more strings with the same pedal). |
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Winston Street
From:
Laurel, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 10:13 am
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| Jim, I have sent you an email.. It really sounds like that whoever set this steel up put the changer pull rods in holes to close to the cross shaft and also put them in holes on the changer too close to the bottom of the guitar(toward the floor). Both of these will make you require more pedal travel. Since you said your pedal rod belcrank wasn't hitting the set screw I would guess that this is what has happened. I don't disagree with John Fabian on not running the pedal balls in the holes closest to the pedal bar, but when I got my MSA, all of the balls were in the top holes. I changed them all to the bottom holes for less pedal travel and it still plays fairly soft. |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 11:50 am
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The manual also dosn't say many things regarding how the MSA is put together. The set screw is there.
Read the sentence again:
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| The ball end should NEVER be inserted in the upper hole unless you remove enough threads to seat the hex shoulder against the pedal surface. |
Read the sections on rodding theory at www.steelguitarinfo.com.
This guitar needs attention. You could try to get in touch with Chris Allen Burke ( www.steelguitarforum.com/Forum18/HTML/000352.html ) in Signal Hill, CA. I recommend you see either Chris or Jim. Your problems are not complex but they are probably beyond the capabilities and patience of most novices. If you just can't seem to find enough time to see one of these people, find someone who is experienced and have them walk you through it on the phone.[This message was edited by John Fabian on 06 July 2005 at 01:09 PM.] |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 12:20 pm
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Jim, I second John Fabian's endorsements of both Jim Palenscar and Chris Allen Burke as technicians who can fix up your MSA. Get her squared away, then call re the lessons. An MSA is very stable once it's properly set up, and these troubles are fairly minor, as John Fabian says.
------------------
E9 lessons
Mullen D-12/Webb amp/Profex II
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 12:43 pm
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While John is certainly correct (shuckins, he should be, he designed the durn thing!), I've found an easier solution to using the top holes in the pedals is to install a .062" thick flat washer under the stud. The studs are pretty hard, and have a fine thread. Grinding or filing them down without a little experience could cause the uninitiated to mess up the threads, thereby causing bigger problems when they attempt to screw the "modified" stud back in the pedal. They could cross-thread it and jam it, or worse, strip the threads in the aluminum pedal. I'm pretty certain that the "stock" position for all the ball fittings is the bottom hole on the pedals, and the bottom holes should always be used unless there's no other way you can get enough mechanical advantage to get an easy-operating pedal.
Since the steel can be made to operate properly even when it's not set up correctly, an improper setup can still cause problems. So, get to someone who can make the required corections and show you exactly what he's doing. That way, you can do it yourself the next time. A drive of a few hours is a small price to pay for that kind of insight. 
p.s. Should anyone need the aforementioned washers, I'd be happy to supply them (no cost). Just send me a S.A.S.E.. |
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Grant Johnson
From:
Nashville TN
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 2:31 pm
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Hey Silverface!
(BTW: Jim has a wealth of six-string experience and infomation which he shares over at the TDPRI and Clarence White Forum.)
I went through the exact same thing with my MSA's and once I learned the tricks and tweaks I was a happy camper...
Pedal travel is a biggy and an easy fix. Also-a bit of slack in the pulling train is very important, but somewhat counterintuitive.
If I can help in anyway, give me an email...
-Grant |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 3:04 pm
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Uh-oh - I've been busted by Big Smokey! I have sorta been one of the b-bender experts at those and the Fender Forum, plus I'm a vintage tube-amp guy. I thought the "real name " thing here would keep me in hiding for years! Sheesh...well, if you have any Tele or bender setup questions or want advice on stompboxes or amps, I'll be happy to return all the favors. It looks like my hand problam has me pretty well out of that whole playing arena for now, so while I'm relearnign steel I'd be happy to share tidbits of stuff I DO know about!
"Playing" pedal steel is not completely new to me - I did a little bit in the past. But the mechanics and FIXING the things is totally uncharted waters, and I'm not a tool-hoarder, so hopefully It's just some adjustments that went out of whack.
I just DO NOT understand how anyone could service/set up and instrument and send it back to the owner with broken parts though. If this Weaver guy did actually work on this instrument, he'd not get repeat business from me, anyway.
NOTE - One thing nobody has mentioned - the little "wrap around" spring that's on each of the large rods running across the guitar, next to the "stop" adjustment - what ARE those, and is a broken one on the B pedal rod going to kill my whole ability to set it up?[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 July 2005 at 04:08 PM.] |
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Winston Street
From:
Laurel, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 7:38 pm
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| Jim, the little wrap around springs are helper springs that return your cross shaft to its original position before mashing the pedal. Your guitar will probably work okay without changing this. They can be a real pain to change because of having to work underneath all of the pull rods that are over it. If this guitar has the aluminum back skirt on it, it would make it a lot easier. I can send you an email and tell you how to do it if you decide to change it. I also have some extra ones if you have trouble finding them. |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 8:11 pm
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| Quote: |
| The upper hole on MSA pedals is for the set screw that holds the pedal shaft in place. The ball end should NEVER be inserted in the upper hole unless you remove enough threads to seat the hex shoulder against the pedal surface. Breakage, such as you descibe, is the inevitable result. |
I fell victim to this very issue with the MSA I had back in the early 70's. I like a short firm pull, so I moved all the connectors to the upper hole, and after a few months, one of them broke. My machinist friend helped me get the broken piece out, but it practically destroyed the pedal.
When I complained to MSA about there being no mention of the setscrew in that hole, and no warning of not using this hole in their owner's manual, I was told that they wouldn't replace the pedal, it wasn't a defect, and because of all the snow, people in Maine wear boots that are too heavy to play pedal steel guitar! Needless to say, I sold the guitar soon after.   |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2005 8:44 pm
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Success!
Huge thanks to Winston Street, John Fabian and my friend Brad Higgins (a veteran of 5 MSA's) plus others - please forgive me for missing your names...for getting this guitar back on track.
It was a combination of parts of suggestions, with two key elements: 1) moving the nipples to the lower holes, and 2) moving the A 5th string changer rod two holes closer to the floor at the crossrod. For some reason, that fixed the C pedal as well. So now the pedals are all nicely lined up, it plays pretty smoothly without a ton of effort, and it stays in /returns to pitch.
It'll still get a going over by a tech, but for now I can noodle around and try to relearn my 7 lame licks from 10 years ago, and at least work on my blocking.
BTW, this one sounds VERY fat through my modified Twin Reverb...oh, and a side benefit is the nipple change somehow allowed me to alter the height some more, so I fit a little better. The extension kit is due in soon and that will help as well.
With this and my Twister bar I'm ready to get to work.
Thanks again SO much to everyone who offered suggestions here and by email. I feel a lot better about the whole thing and am having some fun now!
Regards,
Jim Sliff
Hermosa Beach CA
"No chops, but great tone" |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jul 2005 2:40 am
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Congradulations Jim. Enjoy your new/old steel.
While I had no part in designing the MSA I've worked with and been trained by its designer, Bud Carter, for more than 13 years now. (Also owned 3 or 4 of them  )
Bud told me yesterday that his notes for the manual mentioned not using the upper hole because of the breakage problem. It looks like marketing and management had other thoughts. |
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Winston Street
From:
Laurel, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2005 7:04 am
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| John, it just has to be one of the greatest jobs in the world to be able to work along side of Bud Carter. You guys are doing a terric job with information on your website and the quality guitar you are manufacturing. I just look at the LE natural finish posted on the website and drool. Keep up the good work. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2005 8:56 am
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| John.. I too had 4 MSA guitars.. One I played about 28 years.. I ALWAYS used that top hole exclusively on every pedal of every MSA I had, and never knew I was doing anything wrong... I never had a problem,, but its good to know the little hex shoulder is supposed to touch the pedal. I'll certainly keep that in mind for the future... bob |
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Russ Wever
From:
Kansas City
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Posted 8 Jul 2005 7:21 pm
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Jim,
I am 'the Weaver guy' that you're dissing above.
My involvement in this guitar was primarily installing two knee-lever kits, supplied by Tom Bradshaw and, secondarily, making certain that all the raises/lowers were indeed tuneable.
A complete refurbish was not the goal here, although a some critical checks were done, such as seeing that the pedal ball-joints were seated against the pedals so that the shearing force wouldn't become a bending force upon the ball joints, checking the pedal stop bars for gouging from the tip of the pedal stop adjustment screws, which, if gouged, will create a 'sticky' feel when releasing pedal(s), checking the aluminum changer fingers for wear caused by it's constant contact with the harder steel lowering-blade of the scissor-finger, which, if 'grooved' or 'rutted' can cause the changer to be reluctant from returning from it's 'lowered' position.
When the guitar left me, all raises and lowers were completely tuneable, with enough range in the fifth string so that it could be raised from an open B-note as low as 439 up to a C# tuned as high as 440 with a little free-room left over, and the knee-lever would take the sixth string from a G# tuned as high as 440 down to an F# tuned as low as 436.
In other words, with all the raises and lowers having enough travel so that there is plenty of tuning-range whether you prefer the ET or JI tuning method (beatless or straight-up 440).
The second string was left at lowering a half-tone, rather than a whole-tone, due to the guitar not having a 'factory' spring-loaded half-stop mechanism as some MSAs did.
Using the 'ninth-string lower' to serve as a half-stop for the second string is generally 'mushy' at best.
I can't speak for the way it arrived to you, but can only say that it left me being tuned and in proper adjustment.
Darryl, who you've swapped guitars with, mentioned that when the MSA arrived to you, it was visually appearent that it didn't encounter the smoothest of handling, though I doubt this could be the cause of the tuning concerns. As you might suspect from its weight, MSA's were 'built like a battleship', impervious to even UPS handling (slight humor there!).
As for solutions, I'd be glad to offer some suggestions but I see they've, for the most part, already been offered up by the knowledgeable guys above and, from your previous posts, it's appearent you wouldn't care for any suggestions from 'the Weaver guy' here.
Regards,
~Russ
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Mark Herrick
From:
Bakersfield, CA
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Posted 8 Jul 2005 9:40 pm
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And on that note, welcome to the Forum, Jim!
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2005 10:17 pm
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Russ, I appreciate and respect your comments. I was told it has been fully serviced, so maybe there's a difference in descriptions of what that means. I still, at this point, have a guitar where the RKL on the 6th string doesn't work at all and is jammed. The #4 pedal is set for a 1/4 tone raise and the rest of the C6 neck changer operation is set to randomly innacurate pitches. It took me hours to get the E9 tuned reasonably close, although it's still way off - tuning method is a joke in this case, it can't be set close enough to claim either method was used.
So I don't know what to tell you, other than when it got here it was unplayable, even though I was assured it had been serviced when the knee levers were installed. I still have several hours of work ahead of me and/or a trip to a PSG tech to get it right.
I don't call that "dissing". I call that a factual list of problems, and a plea for help from a newbie who was in a jam.
Thanks again to those who helped...and are still helping me...fix this guitar. And Russ, I do appreciate the offer of help - and please don't "DIss" me for not knowing who you were, either.
Darryl knew I didn't know squat about PSG's and has been absoloutely great about the situation. He thought it was in fine condition when he shipped it, so at this point I just don't know what to say, because it wasn't and it's still not. I WILL make it work, and a side benefit is I'm learning an awful lot of "under the hood" stuff - although that wasn't my intent. My intent was to get an instrument to help me overcome a recent disability that has for now ended 40 years of guitar playing, not to become a PSG mechanic.
Regards,
Jim
[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 July 2005 at 11:20 PM.] |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 9 Jul 2005 11:20 am
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| While I am not advocating everyone become a steel guitar mechanic, I do believe every steel guitarist should have or develop a basic understanding of the mechanics. "It ain't rocket science". A basic understanding would allow the player to perform more effective maintenance as well as minors repairs and adjustments. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2005 12:14 pm
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John, I agree with you. I just got into this one a little deeper than I wanted to right off the bat.
But all is well - as of a little while ago I did the last few tuning adjustments on the C6 neck, put some dowels in the front legs to keep them from slipping (a genius idea given me here!) And have bbeen happily flailing away through my Vibroverb and G-DEC.
A little more time on my own getting a feeel for things, then it's time for real lessons.
This is really a Godsend that it's working out - I've tried playing a little guitar the last few days and it's unbearably painful. My Bass and guitar gigs are toast, but hopefully in a while I'll be up to at least basic jamming leevel on steel (and I still have dobro to fall back on for acoustic fun). I may even fix up a couple lap steels I've had laying around and get them in playing shape as well.
Thanks AGAIN to all the folks who have been helping me with this. You guys are tremendous!
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John Bechtel
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.
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Posted 9 Jul 2005 8:11 pm
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Jim; You mentioned dowels in the legs. What I always do to (3) of the (4)-legs is after the proper heigth is established, I drill a hole into the extension just under the clutch and tap in a 1/16”dia. spring~pin on (3)-legs, leaving the left~rear leg as the leveling-leg. Then, the guitar won't collapse from leaning too hard!
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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site |
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