Confessions Of A Former ET Tuner

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I'm sorry Eric, but I've crossed over to the "other" side.

For many years I've been an ET tuner. It was fast and simple, and best of all, my guitar really blended well with the instruments played by a band member that doubled on guitar and keyboard. Well, he left the band quite a few years ago and I just kept on tuning to ET.

The last three dances I've played at, I've tuned the thirds down about 8 cents. I'll admit that the guitar sounded great by itself, at home; however, I wasn't sure how things would go on the bandstand. Well, I couldn't be more pleased. I think my guitar blended much more nicely, with the flatted thirds.

Here is what I ended up with:

Pedals up: E's and B's tuned to 441. G#'s tuned to 439.

Pedals down: E's and A's tuned to 439. C#'s tuned to 437.

F#'s tuned to 440.

E to F lever tuned to 436.

Tuning this way kept my thirds about 8 cents flat. The F#'s seemed to blend well with both the B's and the C#'s.

ET tuning made a lot of sense to me when I first heard about it (from Mikey Douchette). I tried it and it worked nicely, but again, I was playing with a guitar/keyboard player and my flatted thirds always clashed with his instruments. With ET tuning the problem went away. Like I said, he doesn't play in our band any more, but I just kept on tuning ET because it was easy.

Once again, I'm sorry Eric, but I've left your team, even though your comments that favor ET tuning do make a lot of sense.

Lee, from South Texas

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Not at all. The JIers that come over seldom admit it. Maybe it's a character trait. You're made out of good stuff.

Besides there are a lot of sunspots this time of year, and dogs sometimes bite their human companions during the solstice period.

Everybody slips in one way or another.

You'll be back.

EJL

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

THERE ARE NO FLATTED THIRDS EXCEPT FOR A MINOR THIRD. Let's get this terminology straight.
You got your JI third, which is pure, and your ET third, which is sharp from pure.
You get your pure third from the coincident frequencies of the 5th harmonic of the root and the 4th harmonic of the third.
Don't make me get my ruler out! Slapping hands doesn't make for happy players.

Eric, they'll all be back. Just like Bach.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Charlie - How about "tampered" thirds?

Lee

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Yes, Lee, I forgot to mention all my thirds are tampered.
Somewhere between JI and ET.
Somewhere between Midlin' and Odessa.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Lee, if it's any consolation, that's almost 'zakly how I have tuned for the past 10 years or so. Works great for me, live or in the studio.

I still believe that it's more in how you PLAY than how you TUNE.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

I have pretty much swung around to straight 440 with "tampered" thirds. I'm tuning my Es 440 pedals down. It seems to be blending better with the rest of the band especially fiddle. Here I am 59 years old and still don't know how I want to tune my guitar.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've taken to tuning my pedals and levers by ear lately. I have no idea where they are on the tuner anymore, and I don't care. I use the tuner to get my basic string tuning, then I check to make sure that all of the pedals and levers still sound in tune. I tweak to suit my ear.

That's on the E9th. I suspect I'm getting a lot closer to JI lately. On the C6th, I tune meantone with the tuner.

I agree with those who say it doesn't really matter how you tune. What matters is that you play in tune. The steel guitar is an instrument than can be played in tune regardless of the temperment used (or abused).

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Buck Grantham R.I.P. · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

b0b just about covered my tuning method, and that is to obtain a note from a fixed instrument such as the piano, and then tune until everything "sounds" in tune. Tuners can expedite the process, but should not be considered as the "holy grail", because as Jeff Newman said, "Tuners Lie".

I don't know anything about tuning labels or definitions, and I know the objections to tuning by ear, that it can't be trusted, but if I can't tune successfully by my ear then I need to find another hobby.

Musicians survived for eons without electronic tuners!

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www.genejones.com
The Road Traveled "From Then 'til Now"

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Just curious...
Is it possible to tune 100% ET without a tuner? (and if so, how?).
~pb

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Bob nailed it, in my opinion. I get a note from the piano, then tune everything so it sounds in tune to me. After that, it's a question of 'manipulating' the steel into tune with your ears and the bar; I no longer have much idea of where exactly my strings (with or without pedals) might read on a tuner. I trust my ears more.

I like to have a tuner handy for when I break a string during a show - then I can 'silently' get the new string in the 'ball park' and be ready to play with a minimum of delay.

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 04 July 2005 at 10:56 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Yes E B, and that is basically what tuning "beatless" is. The ability to count to zero.

Absent ears, I guess a guy could do it by feeling vibrations with one's hand or watching the waves subside in a beer glass..

I've found again and again when I test it that I tune thirds to ET without a tuner. I hear a beatless third as being flat and dead sounding. (The minor thirds sound sharp.)

Beatless fifths I find less so, but the beats on them is about 2 per second as opposed to four of more I find with a nice bright sounding ET thirds.

"Ear training", or just plain "Counting to Zero"?

Mostly I think it's just the latter.

EJL

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Every time you tune one interval "beatless", you are tuning another one (or two) "useless".

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well here we go again I Guess.

So, this "Beatless" third, when it's not played with it's complimenting root and fifth..

Since it is not "ear training", and it is evidently "beat counting", doesn't it matter that it's up to twice the value off when it becomes a non-third of another chord if it's say a minor third of another chord? That's about two bits off. But I guess it doesn't matter because single notes have "no beats". Hey, I answered my own question..

What about single note runs? Does a good ear trained "JI'er move the bar a third of a fret for the random out of context JI note? Or since it's not what you hear, but what you count, it doesn't matter. Nobody can hear that kind of stuff. Whoa! I did it again.

Also, when a JIer finally tunes "Everything" to JI, which of his or her combinations like the F lever only does he or she not play? I suppose vibrato. One more answer to my own question.

Out of tune with other instruments?

Silly guy, everybody knows that all tuners are different..

I guess it's simpler than I thought.

...Nevermind...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 July 2005 at 12:06 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Ernest, I don't know what I feel for your writing is love or fear..

EJL

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Bobby, as Eric is wont to say..."Bless your heart"!

As I've stated before, how you tune is immaterial. Playing in tune is what matters. There are several "name" players whom I can no longer listen to. I try, but the dissonances they produce grate on my nerves...like fingernails on a blackboard. They penetrate to the very soul of my consciousness, and they irk my sensibilities. "They have to hear that!" I wail, "Surely someone else is also offended by all those warbling intervals". Perhaps, perhaps not. Played fast, I can easily gloss over them and listen to what else is going on, to the nuances of pick, bar, and pedal movements. But when they take on a slow passage, I grit my teeth in preparation for the atonal onslaught that's about to assail my senses.

And then, I think back, 30, 40, 50 years. These "sounds" did not appear then. Even Cousin Jody, with his "biscuit board" slung low before his lanky staggering frame, playing while meandering across the Opry stage committed no such aural offense.

And then, I try to guess...why today, and not then? Were it not for the evidence etched in vinyl, I might find myself blaming some internal factor, a lapse in memory, or an unschooled young ear back then. But it's there. I have proof.

Them old guys...

when they were young...

they were pretty good, weren't they?

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 04 July 2005 at 12:01 PM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

A quick search on ET brought up this ol b0b/Eric thread:

I had asked if anyone tunes ET by ear. Eric replied:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I want to do it fast, I don't count the beats as much and just go for what is in my memory until I can get tuned by a correct tuner. The G#s get a "sparkle" and the F#s match the Bs with the Eb inbetween.
I just tried it while I posted, and I got within 7 cents on the worst of it.

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Within 7 cents? WITHIN 7 CENTS? I tune everything but my F lever within 7 cents of the zero mark, and I'm nowhere near equal temperament. I wonder if we're talking about the same thing here...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Marty Pollard · Posted 4 Jul 2005 1:29 pm

I don't really want to argue about this again; I had an extended conversation w/John Macy about this last month and his JI playing sounded fine to me but he didn't convert me because he wouldn't (or couldn't) explain the 'tampered string in different interval' conundrum. Until THAT'S explained (better than b0b's lame 'fret it sharp or flat' junk), I can't use that system.

I have developed a bad habit of wanting all the inversions available to me at any given time/place so I can't really remember what to avoid. I suppose if I did it that way for a year or two I could 'know' what to avoid but why would I do that?

David Doggett · Posted 4 Jul 2005 1:55 pm

Eric, your examples of how JI supposedly doesn't work all seem hypothetical. As I have discussed in previous threads, on E9, the standard I, IV, V majors and i, ii minors can be played almost pure JI at all three major chord positions (open, AB, AF) and all three minor chord positions (A, BC, E lower). Some will not be directly over the fret (with JI or ET), because of cabinet drop, but the distance is not visible and they are routinely played in tune by any competent player. The main exception is the AF combination, which is slightly sharp of the fret, but nowhere near a third of a fret. This is also routinely played in tune by competent players. Maybe some more complicated chords such as suspended, 7ths, 9ths, diminished, etc. are a little off from pure JI (it is not always clear to me what JI should be for some of these). But it does not seem noticable in these naturally dissonant chords, and it is less off from pure JI on these less common chords than ET is on all chords.

The reason the standard changes work so well is because when a string that was a 3rd for one chord changes to another interval in another chord, it is tuned at a different place (a different pedal or knee stop), so it is automatically corrected. The standard changes work out like this because, if they didn't, they wouldn't have survived as standard changes. So I would be interested in any specific examples of grips, pedals, levers, etc. where there are conflicts for you.

For single string work, I think many JI players would fret major thirds flat of the fret by ear on a slow line (and minor thirds sharp of the fret), especially when harmonizing with vocals or other instruments playing a different interval. On faster runs I think everyone simply tries to hit as close to the fret as possible both visually and by ear. Since the frets are spaced according to ET, we would simply be using ET for fast single string stuff, which seems to be acceptable by everyone. Surely you have no objections to us playing ET sometimes.

As far as playing in tune with other instruments tuned ET, again this is routinely done by competent JI players, although I'm sure there are plenty of examples where it was not done well, especially in recording situations where tracks are cut at different times.

As for tuning and playing ET by ear, I'm sure a competent player can learn that pretty well. Piano tuners routinely do it without tuners, by counting beats. But of course that can't be done playing in real time. Nevertheless, I'm sure someone who becomes accustomed to tuning ET and playing with other ET instruments can learn to do so by ear.

Having said that, I firmly believe that most people int he Western world, nonmusicians, novices and veterans alike, will naturally tune and play harmony closer to JI than to ET, if given a tonic and told to tune by ear. That is all I mean when I say our ears "want to hear JI." That is simply a convenient generalization, and is not meant to imply that your ears have not become accustomed to and so want to hear ET.

Let's get rid of the hypotheticals, strawmen and red herrings and talk about specific examples. I haven't looked into C6 and nonpedal grips as much as E9. But Jerry Byrd tuned his nonpedal C6 JI by ear, and his intonation was always as close to perfect as seems humanely possible. However, Buddy Emmons, a pioneer of a fairly elaborate pedal steel C6 setup for playing jazz apparently found it better to tune ET. So I would never say JI can work for everything. But for most of the basic E9 stuff it works fine.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well Pete, if you read further in the quote you will understand. It would have taken less time than quoting the fragment.

I'll take a shot and say that it was my D string that I found that was out when tuned as a fifth to my F#. You tell me since you read it last.

So can you tune your strings within 7 cents without counting beats to zero? 20?

Test yourself and post the results like I did. Then I'll cut what I want out of them and post it.

It does take a lot of experience that's for sure. I've been used to ET for 40 years that I know of, 25 of them on this instrument. Tuning guitars to "frets" is kind of hokey too I admit.

Now its not like I'm explaining things for the dozenth time, I'm actually having to go back and "copy my posts". I don't think so...

EJL

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

No DD they're not hypothetical at all.

They are merely questions I answered myself using the replies of posts I've read here over the years. Facetious? Yes, but it's confusing for those that don't know what that means..

I'll post the whole thing again if need be to keep it from being quoted piecemeal by people with poor reading skills.

or...

You can just scroll up before the next page appears..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 04 July 2005 at 03:09 PM.]

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