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Topic: nut rollers |
David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 9:19 am |
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I'm thinking I want to modify my bigsby vibrato by replacing the solid bar under which the strings ride with individual rollers for the strings, so as to decrease drag and make the action of the mechanism easier. Pedal steel nut rollers I think could be made to work just fine, especially the ones smallest in diameter.
Any ideas where I can get six? They don't need to be new, or gauged or anything fancy. I suppose it would be good if they matched, tho. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 11:09 am
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David,
You are forgetting that PSG nut rollers have a very small diameter axle hole.
A shaft of this small diameter would not have the strength for using on a vibrato system, unless it was supported between each roller.
R B |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 11:30 am
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I thought of that after I posted the message but decided it couldn't hurt to give it a try, depending on what six rollers would cost. The plan could accommodate some give, but I agree, it would have to be minimal.
My original plan was to use pulley wheels, but o.d. is a concern, as the larger it gets, the more downward pressure on the bridge, and that, plus the drag, is why the Bisgby action is so stiff.
Time to take a closer look at the Bigsby and see just how much room I have to work with.
I've got a roller bridge from a 60's Japanese electric, where the rollers are on a threaded axle. That is what started me thinking in this direction, but because those rollers were of varying diameter to accommodate fingerboard curvature, I decided to come up with an alternative |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 11:35 am
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| On guitars, today, with a Bigsby the bridge seems to me to be the issue. I had a 1961 Gretsch PX6120 Chet Atkins guitar with the Bigsby and after 25 years it was still working without problems. But, the Gretsch bridge is a soldid piece and only had grooves in it and was wide enough not to really cause a problem. The reissued Gretsch's have a different bridge and I remember seeing one that looked similar to the Gibson Tune-o-matic bridge and that would seem to be a problem area. |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 11:49 am
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For a long time I thought the bridge was the the problem, but after trying and using for several years one of two different roller bridges that I have, I came to conclude that the problem did not lie there. The Bigsby is on a les paul-type guitar with an arched top; if I run the strings over the guide, the angle at the bridge is much less steep and the Bigsby works easily. The problem is that becuase the angle is so slight, the strings readily pop out of the bridge rollers with anything other than really delicate playing. When I route the strings under that guide they stay in fine but the drag is too great. A middle ground would be the answer, but I would have to put shims under the forward feet of the Bigsby to raise it up, and that would be too mickey mouse even for me. So I came up with the idea of rollers of somewhat smaller diameter, but now we have axle diameter considerations.
I would suck it up and just get over it, but I've reached the end of my tolerance of the guitar's not returning to tune a lot of the time. The vibrato on this horribly cheap -at the time- Japanese electric is soooooo smooth I'm not willing to settle for less at this point.
I'm off to see Lewis Black, the comedian, live, so I won't be back here till tomorrow.[This message was edited by David Deratany on 01 July 2005 at 12:51 PM.] |
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Lonnie Portwood
From:
Jacksonville, fl. USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 12:19 pm
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| David, contact David Wallace, Wallace Guitars, Niota, Tenn. He just built me and several other friends, a custom Arch top on the order of a "super Chet" Gretch. with a standard Bigsby vibrato, and it works perfectly! He can help you. Lonnie P.S. Search Wallace Guitars.com |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 4:55 pm
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You can replace the front piece with separate rollers, but I don't think that will solve your problem like you want it to. First of all this is on a Les Paul type guitar. The downward pressure at the bridge is playing a big part in the problem. Until you lessen the pressure there you will still have the problem. On the old arch tops, the bridge is free floating and "rocks" back and forth when using the Bigsby. If your bridge does not do this VERY easily then you need a roller bridge like a Schaller there, rollers on the front section AND rollers at the nut. The angle from the Bigsby over the bridge is also not as pronounced on a large archtop.
I have a guitar I built with this problem. I am going to make an aluminum spacer to put under the Bigsby to raise it up and attempt to reduce the angle under the roller and over the bridge. I have a Chet Atkins wire type arm to put on it to replace the handle which will now be too high. It can be adjusted.
You are on the right track with the shims under the front---I just don't know what that is going to do with your handle angle.
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 1 Jul 2005 11:34 pm
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Why not replace the bar with one made from Delrin, maybe with a steel core? Shouldn't be too difficult...
--------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ´74 Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Peavey Nashville 1000 |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 4:52 am
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Bill.
Ah yes, you understand exactly what is going on. I have two roller bridges, one I forget the brand, but the the rollers were only cantilevered and not supported on both ends of the axle and so would bottom out and not roll. I would never say .."designed by morons". The other is a Schaller which doesn't have that design flaw but nonetheless either didn't work at all, or worked but not enough.
Shimming up the front of the Bigsby is starting to take on more charm, but as you wisely point out, the angle of the dangle of the arm could become a problem. I do have the "Chet Atkins" curved arm, but it locks into place on the shaft with a set screw and a detente, but I imagine I could drill another detente if that were the only thing keeping it from proper adjustment.
The guitar - complete with built-in compressor and tube fuzz - was made by my dad and me, our first and only effort. If there is an interest in seeing it I would post pics if that can be done and if I knew how.
Per,
Yes, I am thinking about a narrower diameter front piece, as every little bit will help. I don't know anything about delrin, but I think that unless/until the angle of the strings over the bridge is reduced, nothing else alone will be adequate, but I'm certainly willing to settle for less than vibrato nirvana. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 6:11 am
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In regards to the "narrow diameter front piece", that is a viable option. Bigsbys have come with several different size rollers on the front. I would knock out the pin that holds the front roller on and see what the diameter of the shaft is and find some metal tubing of a smaller size or mill some individual rollers that are smaller if that will help. I would say that unless you can raise the strings up at least 1/4"+ that you are not going to notice any difference.
I have a piece of aluminum plate stock that is 1/2". That is what I am thinking about using under my B5 Bigsby on a Tele looking guitar I built. I would take the Bigsby off and trace the outling of the unit onto the plate and saw it on a metal cutting bandsaw and then install.
On as opposite note, I have seen and have done another mod on guitars with the Gibson style vibrola. You can rout out the body under the vibrola and drop it down to work on guitars like Jazzmasters or Teles. It actually is a decent vibrato. Both it and the Bigsby are designed for just a little "wiggle" and certainly not for the dive bomb mess that you hear the metal/Van Halen players do.
If you have ever played a guitar with a nicely set up Bigsby, it is really a very musical effect, is smooth operating and retains very good pitch. All the planets have to be in good alignment for this to work!
If you want to send me an email pic of your guitar I would like to see it.
Edit. I thought of one more mod that might be of interest. You could knock out the shaft for the roller, plug the holes with some aluminum rod and redrill the holes upward and maybe gain 1/8"+.
[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 02 July 2005 at 09:02 AM.] |
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Ron
From:
Hermiston, Oregon
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 4:07 pm
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If you want small rollers I use the string ends for rollers on my nut for dobro raised nuts. Look on my site robroguitar.com and see the one that is Norman Hamlets robro 8 string guitar. I use the string ends and grove a alummun 1/4 wide and gruve the long way than cross ways for the rollers. The hole is a copper #12 electrical wire.
Robro ron |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 5:55 pm
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| That sure is some nice stuff you make. I like that roller assembly but don't see how I can get there from here without a major effort. I did briefly think of string ends but didn't pursue it. Maybe now I should remove that front piece and take some measurements. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 7:37 pm
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Beautiful work Ron.
In regards to the small rollers, I don't think it will work on the front Bigsby bar. The nice roller nut you make has the small diameter shaft resting on several places in between the roller. The same size shaft supported by nothing on the front of the Bigsby unit and carrying the entire downward pressure of 6 strings would bend.
edit: As Richard Burton said.
[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 02 July 2005 at 08:37 PM.] |
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Charles Dempsey
From:
Shongaloo, LA
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Posted 2 Jul 2005 8:04 pm
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The best vibrato tailpiece I ever used was the Mosrite. It consisted of;
1. Tailpiece with compressed spring.
2. Roller bridge made of folded brass with individual string towers which were slotted and had a small roller thingie pinned in the slot.
3. Zero fret. The actual nut was just a string guide.
The Steinberger system works as well as the Mosrite (it uses a zero fret too). IMHO, the Bigsby was a bit of an antique even in its day.
Charlie |
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David Deratany
From:
Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Posted 3 Jul 2005 6:26 am
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Bill,
I was thinking that maybe something like Ron's nut assembly but upside down could replace the front bar and eliminate the axle give under the string pressure, maybe even be adjustable heightwise, if it were cost effective ..... or am I losing it 
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