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Topic: Roller nuts |
Russell Adkins
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2017 4:35 pm |
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| Roller Nuts on a pedal steel looks cool however cool is not always really needed . Lets look at a 6 string guitar with a tremolo system , lots of players use them alot bending notes and dive bombing a note and never break a string , notes are or strings are stretched over and over again alot more than what you would do on a pedal steel during the process of playing a song and still dont break , so this kinda makes me feel that a roller is not really needed ha ha ok now let me have it , tell me what you think one thing also a good trem system always returns the string back to pitch , some use a locking type of nut some dont , a roller nut just uses a small roller so the string can slide over however minimal it is , either way your still stretching that string past its tuned pitch or lowering it and tension is still in effect either way , just blowin smoke here something for conversation if ya will . russ |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Sep 2017 9:38 pm
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String breakage isn't the problem ... friction-caused hysteresis is.
I have a PSG designed and built without rollers - just a bolt, and strings hang - friction causes audible hysteresis - after raises and lowers. No arguements makes that friction-hang sound right to my ears, even if the designer told me in person that "You can't hear that". Clearly he didn't...
No way to eliminate the friction between strings and nut-bolt for more than a minute or two, and then only by applying thick grease onto the bolt where the strings pass over it. I have tested that way a few times just to make sure the friction-hang is real, and it sure is.
I cannot get through a single tune before the strings bite through the grease and start hanging on the bolt again, so that method is of course totally useless in practice.
For comparison: none of my PSGs with nut-rollers exhibit that friction-hang, as long as their roller-shafts are being properly oiled every two-three months or so.
Conclusion: properly working nut-rollers are an absolute necessity on a pedal steel.
Of course, if it was possible to lock the strings at the nut itself, the hysteresis problem at that end would not exist. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2017 9:43 pm
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| Georg, you could maybe replace some of the nut with TUSQ since it has some "slipperyness" built in to it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Sep 2017 10:14 pm
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Stephen, TUSQ won't be slippery enough.
On that particular PSG it is "all or nothing"... replace the bolt with a specially design nut-roller set that fits the rest of the construction, or trash the instrument. Haven't decided what's best yet  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 6:17 am
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The 1st pedal steels didn't have roller nuts but it wasn't long before they went to roller nuts because of excessive string breakage.  |
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Bobby Bonds Sr.
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 7:06 am roller
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Another opinion! I've had strings break over the nut, and on the changer where's there's no roller, thankfully not too often. I put a tenth indicator on the rollers, and could not see any movement to speak of, not even a tenth of a thousandth.I believe the nut and the changer finger needs to be at least 65 rockwell in hardness,and a 8 or better micro finish to eliminate
drag. All that being said, I've taken strings right out of the box and broke before I got it tuned several times! Maybe the quality control of the strings needs to be improved. |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 7:32 am
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"......a good trem system always returns the string back to pitch........"
In my 40+ years of playing Fender Strats, in my experience this is the exception and not the norm. Playing a Strat or any guitar with a trem, and using it for more than subtle "shimmers" or vibrato, is like playing a different instrument. You need to learn the techniques and tricks required, or it will not stay in tune.
Also, most (note I said "most") pitch changes on a PSG are no more than 2 notes (half steps) up or down. A trem guitar can be much more than that, with some strings being lowered a full octave or more. Big difference.
".....some use a locking type of nut some dont......."
Locking trem systems are a different animal, and are not an apples to apples comparison. However, keyless PSGs may be similar to a locking trem system due to the fact that there is little string length behind the nut. |
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Larry Petree
From:
Bakersfield. Ca. USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 9:47 am nut
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| Years ago when I was playing my three neck Bigsby, with pedals, I would often hear a squeak when using pedals. I phoned Paul Bigsby about the problem. His fix was to use the lead from a #2 pencil, in the string groove, for lubrication. (Graphite) It worked, but I had to use it often. Also, my first ZB steel had the same problem. Zane soon went to rollers, no more problem. YMMV |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 9:56 am
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If I'm not mistaken when Sho~Bud first started building pedal steels they didn't use a roller nut.
In quick order, however, Shot started using string ends for rollers.  |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 11:59 am
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| ajm wrote: |
| Locking trem systems are a different animal, and are not an apples to apples comparison. However, keyless PSGs may be similar to a locking trem system due to the fact that there is little string length behind the nut. |
Mine is keyless, w/approx 1/2 inch string length behind the nut. Doesn't work as advertized. |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 1:25 pm
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Georg: I'm afraid that I don't understand your comment. What was advertised, and/or doesn't work as advertised?
Going back, note that I initially said: ".....keyless PSGs MAY be similar to a locking trem system.....", meaning that someone else will need to comment on that and confirm or not.
It sounds like from your experience that extra 1/2 inch of "unlocked" string behind the nut can create enough movement/slack in the strings so that they don't always return to pitch. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Sep 2017 3:24 pm
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| ajm wrote: |
| It sounds like from your experience that extra 1/2 inch of "unlocked" string behind the nut can create enough movement/slack in the strings so that they don't always return to pitch. |
That is correct. Audible, and then of course also measurable, out of pitch after releasing raise or lower. Tap the strings and they slip back to pitch.
What has been, and is, advertized for that particular construction, is as follows...
| Quote: |
| No roller nut is required as there is no measurable movement at the nut. |
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