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Topic: Acceptable" cabinet drop. |
Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 4 Mar 2003 8:14 pm |
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Okay. I realize that this is a very subjective question, and that that's probably the reason why I can't find any really definitive answer to it in the archives, but what would people consider to be an "acceptable" level of cabinet drop?
I've read stuff that says six cents is "unplayable." I've also read stuff that says it's no big deal; just adjust bar pressure or tune your E's a bit sharp or don't push so hard on the pedals and you'll be fine.
Some people seem to be okay with up to ten cents drop, other wince at even one!
I'm going to try detuning various strings on my lapsteel to see what level I can live with, but I'd still appreciate any thoughts anybody has, especially on the subject of the effectiveness of workarounds like adjusting bar pressure and stuff like that.
Also, some posts suggest that simply cleaning a guitar up and getting everything underneath in tight condition can go a long way to reducing the problem. Any thoughts on this are also very welcome.
-Travis |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2003 8:59 pm
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| My answer is: If you don't "HEAR" the drop, then why worry about it? |
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Danny Naccarato
From:
Burleson, Texas
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Posted 4 Mar 2003 9:26 pm
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| Detuning on a lapsteel???? |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 4 Mar 2003 10:05 pm
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Danny, I might be wrong but I think Travis intends on detuning some of the strings on his lapsteel in various increments, and then playing the lapsteel to see how different levels of detuning due to cabinet drop might effect the sound. In other words, I take it that he's going to try to simulate various levels of cabinet drop detuning on his lapsteel to see how much is too much  |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 1:04 am
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| Quote: |
| what would people consider to be an "acceptable" level of cabinet drop? |
If it doesn't bother you, and if you can play in tune, it's acceptable. If it does bother you, OR you can't play in tune, it's unacceptable. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 7:31 am
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NOTHING less than ZERO cabinet drop is acceptable to me. The same thing goes for cabinet raise also. I have a real problem with my 6th string raising in pitch when I lover the E's.
There have been a number of improvements down thru the years in the evolution of the PSG. Sadly, two of these have NOT been given the impetus they should have been IMO, by most of the builders. They are:
1. The tops of the strings being dead level flat at the nut. (The nut rollers should long since have been made adjustable up an down)
2. Cabinet drop and raise. NO excuse for it IMO. (note: the argument that cabinet drop aids when engaging pedals has never made sense to me)
I will repeat an oft' phrase. "I would gladly give up glitter and gold to have these two problems corrected, instead."
Glitter and gold is short lived. But string rattle at the first few frets; and of course cabinet drop, lives with you as long as you play the guitar.
Oh well,
carl
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 7:37 am
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I find in some instances, sound perception is more acute, and possibly more accurate than it would be on other days. Confused? If you've never experienced playing for a short period, without realizing a string or two is sharp or flat, then you are an exception to the rule. Mean averages play an integral part in cabinet drop. This would require extensive replies on the thread to fully understand the
phenomenon.
Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 05 March 2003 at 10:46 AM.] |
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rhcarden
From:
Lampe,Mo / USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 10:27 am
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Carl has it right! 0 is exceptable.
Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune. If you are playing alone it doesn't matter how you tune, but if you are in a band, you need to be in tune with that band. To me 442.5 is sharp! I tune as close to 440 as my guitar will permit, all strings and all pedals.
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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
[This message was edited by rhcarden on 06 March 2003 at 08:05 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 11:09 am
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I can live with 5 cents. That basically means that when I press A+B, I should technically move the bar up by 1/20th of a fret. In practice I can't really hear it, though, so I'm probably not moving the bar.
Let your ears be your guide.
------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 11:27 am
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Acceptable???
What is not acceptable to some is no problem for a lot of others. How do you exlain that? Could it be that they are better players? The bottom line is...you gotta learn to play through all these insignificant problems! No one even heard the term "cabinet drop" before digital tuners came into widespread use. The same thing for the uneven strings at the nut. It's real easy to blow these "problems" out of proportion, and be obsessed by them.
Listen to some of those 40 year-old records, and tell me where you hear these problems! (You probably won't hear them.)
Oh, and before you blame your steel for every shortcoming in your steelplaying, let someone else (a good player) play it, and you just sit back and listen.
Then see if that doesn't tell you where the real problem is. 
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 March 2003 at 11:29 AM.] |
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Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 11:58 am
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| Quote: |
| Just because it sounds in tune to you does not mean that you are in tune |
I think everyone would be amazed if you took a tuner to the solos of some of the best players in the world, and looked at their so-called perfect intonation. I would venture to guess that you would find MANY notes that are noticeably off on close scrutiny. Playing and sounding in-tune has far more to do with the musical sensibilities of the player and how they are conveyed by his/her technique, then they do with 5 cents of cabinet drop or JI vs ET. But with that being said, if you believe you are out of tune (which is possible with 1 cent of cabinet drop!), you will undoubtedly play and sound out of tune, as much if not more because of the psychological aspect of it as the physical tuning of the strings and pedals. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 March 2003 at 11:59 AM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 12:56 pm
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What's actually in tune is debatable, so, by definition (or lack thereof), I've concluded that playing in tune is impossible  . On the other hand, SOUNDING like you're playing in tune is clearly possible. We have many examples and I agree with Jeff. If you want to get out the scope and check out every note -- no matter what you choose as the gold std -- JI / ET / something in between -- there are notes that aren't 'true' to the scope and most folks with good ears would be none the wiser.
If it sounds in tune and you have good ears, YOU ARE IN TUNE. Also, it's much more important, and more difficult to PLAY in tune.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 1:36 pm
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| Does this mean that when I play thinking I am in tune and really I'm out of tune that everyone else would be out of tune to my hearing so I must have a serious hearing problem--I had better quit while I am ahead. Joe |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 1:50 pm
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Joe,
You make a valid point. So does Larry. Let me muddy the waters even further.
I went over to a fellow steel players house one time. He asked If I wanted to play his brand new Emmons' LeGrande. As I tried to play it, his 3rds were WAY too sharp for me. His 5ths were too flat for my ears. So I said,
"I am afraid I can't play it because it is not tuned the way I tune". He immediately said, "Retune like you like it".
When I did, and played it, he commented. "That sounds great" And he was not just trying to make me feel good.
When he sat back down, he immediately retuned it his way. And HE sounded great to my ears. It was beautiful.
When the day comes ANY body on this earth can explain that scenario to me (to my satisfaction), I will eat their steel bar AND picks on the 50 yard line; during half time; at the next superbowl.
And I will not buy that either of us was "tweaking" the bar to compensate.
carl |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 2:26 pm
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Carl, if it's any consolation, I've heard the same story about someone sitting at Buddy Emmons steel. When Buddy played it sounded perfectly in tune, yet when the other person tried it, it was so far out of tune that he couldn't play it.  |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 3:09 pm
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String pull body warping, uncontrolled temperatures, miniscule bridge distance changes, variable bar pressure, and inadvertent bar angling, are some of the culprits involved in this matter. The seemingly inexplicable and undesirable pitch changes that are noted when pedals are applied, would vanish if the bridge distances remain the same. Consider the pressure arc on the strings which changes the distances from bridge to bridge, depending on a given force. The bar itself creates overtones, and disrupts the tenacity of the string, thereby becoming directly involved in pitch changes.
Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 05 March 2003 at 04:39 PM.] |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 3:38 pm
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Was there a verb in that last sentence, Bill?
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
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Travis Bernhardt
From:
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 4:39 pm
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Interesting responses.
I sat down with my Duolian today and first tuned it to open C as accurately as I could without a tuner (after tuning the first string with one). Every string was a tiny amount off, but no more than a cent or three. So my ear isn't perfect, but it's not terrible.
So then I tuned up WITH the tuner to get everything "perfect." I put the bar at the fifth fret, stummed once to hear if I was in tune, then without moving the bar checked each individual string on the tuner. Whoa. The fifth string was about ten cents sharp, the sixth string four or five flat, the rest of them within a few cents but not a single string was perfectly where it was supposed to be.
I tried adjusting the bar pressure front to back (took a surprising amount of downward pressure to bring a string even a few cents up) and slanting the bar, but because of the big difference between the fifth and sixth strings that didn't work. The most I could get was strings one, three and four in tune and everything else a little bit out, especially that fifth string.
After some more tests I realized that if I played any INDIVIDUAL NOTE or two note combination I could get in tune almost perfectly, but strumming a whole chord just couldn't be done on my guitar if you wanted to keep everything EXACTLY in tune. And I realized that I couldn't really hear it!
So I guess when it comes to me, at this point I can live with a fair amount of "out-of-tuneness" as long as it's buried within a full chord.
Oh, and I should add that about ten cents out either way was my limit within a chord before I did start to notice, and two cents was my limit for a single note.
-Travis |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 4:47 pm
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Larry B.
I should have known. I believe the grammatical error has been corrected. Thanks for the lesson. It is appreciated.
Bill H. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 5 Mar 2003 4:55 pm
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I was just funnin' you, Bill
Thanks for taking it in the spirit it was intended.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2003 2:03 pm
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Long before this thread takes the abysmal plunge to the archives, allow me to reiterate what I consider a troublesome string, that is smack dab in the middle of the major chord grips. I don't recall reading anything on this Forum, that sheds light on the 6th string of the E9th tuning, or how much it contributes to the out of tune dilemma. It would be interesting to observe the 6th string in great detail, on the most prominantly troublesome of the lot, of "cabinet drop" steel guitars. If the 6th string is out of tune, nothing will make playing enjoyable, as it cancels out any hope of sounding in tune on melody chords, using the important E-F change. Please spare me, and leave compensators out of this bid to pinpoint the real culprit associated with "cabinet drop."
Bill H.
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 6 Mar 2003 2:56 pm
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You won't hear it from me, Bill. A wound sixth solves that problem in its entirety -- for me at least. I've resigned myself to accept cabinet drop as a necessary evil. Jerry Fessenden and I have spent hours and hours discussing this to no resolution, except that a wound sixth makes the problem tolerable on every guitar I've tried it on. He's tried several structural modifications to no avail.
A push-pull won't quite make it down a whole tone (which I require), but mine hardly has any noticeable cabinet drop, so I use a plain sixth on my '69. That's what works for me.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 06 March 2003 at 03:01 PM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2003 4:42 pm
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When I received my first U-12, I noticed cabinet drop instantly. In fact it bothered me so much I shelved my 40 yr dream.
Then, I heard that Excel had come up with a mod on their new guitars to counteract cabinet drop. So I sent an email to Mitsuo to find out if my PSG could be upgraded. He very kindly said, "no becaue of the changes I had him make on my guitar". This made sense but saddened me even further.
Then, one of my dear friends, David Phillips, bought a brand new Excel and was nice enough to send me several really close up photos of the counterforce mechanism on his guitar. Also another friend, Gary Steele, who purchased one told me his cabinet drop was zero with this mod.
After days of studying the photos David had sent me, I thought I may have hit on a way that the device "could" be redesigned and installed on my guitar. So I drew it all up to scale and sent it to Mitsuo.
He emailed me the moment he got the drawings. I am happy to say he agreed and he is now in the process of milling the new parts to fit my guitar. Needless to say I am very excited about this.
I can't wait to get it and install it. I will let you know how it works. I simply cannot say enough about this builder. NEVER in my life have I ever met a person in business more willing to help a past customer than Mistuo Fujii.
God bless this dear man,
carl |
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rhcarden
From:
Lampe,Mo / USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2003 8:46 pm
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Just because you can live with 5 cents cabinet drop, why should you have to. I played in the 50's and we had cabinet drop, not as much as today, but most times we only pulled two strings. My old p/p has no more than 2 cents on any string, I live with that, but I don't like it!
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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2003 11:06 pm
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I don't see the A+F position as anyting more than "more of the same" in a different position, and am eliminating it from my steels in favor of something new and robust.
So there's one problem eliminated!
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