teach me about compression springs (push pull)

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

I'm still having some issues with my Emmons 10th string lowering to B after pedals down. Tried putting the compression spring back on and it didnt help. can someone explain to me what exactly the purpose of the compression spring is ? I assume its there if a pedal is pulling 2 strings that the spring needs to go on the rod with the least amount of travel between the two ? If I understood a little better I feel like I could fix it. the spring has always been there on the 10th string pull rod, key head end, between the bell crank and the collar, but if I leave too much slack it wont raise all the way, and if I make it too tight it cant lower all the way. just lubed the changer finger also so its moving quite smoothly. thanks
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Compression springs let you time your pulls for two or more strings so they will bottom out at same time. I read your last post and think I understand your problem. The smaller the string (let's take the G#s for instance) the more distance it will have to be pulled to bring up to pitch. The small G# string has to be pulled further than the big G#, 6th string. On my push pulls, I don't use compression springs on the small G# or the small B string for that matter.
As you mash a pedal, the smaller string changer starts to move and also the large string changer starts to move. The larger string will bottom out first if there were no compression springs and therefore the smaller string can't make to tune. If a spring were on the larger string between the collar and the bell crank, it would go ahead and bottom out but since there is a spring, it can go ahead and move to let the small string reach its tuning. That is the simple explanation. With the springs you can also have both pedals bottom out at same time making a smoother pedal action. Just by adjusting springs and collars, this can be done.
I like a smooth positive feel in my pedals so if there are two pulls on one pedal like the A pedal pulling both B's to C#, then I don't use a compression spring on the smallest string but I still time them by adjusting collars to where they both bottom out or reach C# at same time. To do this adjusting, the changer has to be in tune. In other words, with no pedals the string has to be in tune and with the changer finger pulled all way to body, the pull has to be in tune. Once this is done, then you can adjust the collars for a smooth pedal feel. Also, the pedal stop has to make contact about a hair after the changer bottoms out.

Hope this helps, I'm not the greatest at putting into words, lol

Edit: by the way, same deal for lowering a string, compression springs work same way.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

Great explanation thank you !
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Try to locate a copy of "The Wilderness Guide to Basic Setup of an Emmons Push Pull Steel Guitar", by John Lacey. Make it your bedtime reading for about six months.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Compression springs are relative. Too often you find push pulls set up with a lot of spring on quick change strings where little or no spring is needed. Then you are required to have a lot of spring for other strings. It is easier to set a push pull up that way, but it makes for a lest crisp playing push pull. That seems to be how the so called west coast "expert" knows how to set up an Emmons. It makes the spring distributor happy, but it is not best for the player
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Compression springs are relative. Too often you find push pulls set up with a lot of spring on quick change strings where little or no spring is needed. Then you are required to have a lot of spring for other strings. It is easier to set a push pull up that way, but it makes for a lest crisp playing push pull. That seems to be how the so called west coast "expert" knows how to set up an Emmons. It makes the spring distributor happy, but it is not best for the player
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Exactly Chris, I like a crisp positive pedal feel so I usually don't even use springs on the small string pulls and get by with as little spring as I can on larger string and still get the timing right with no notches in my pedal feel. Sometimes I do set up the A pedal with a very small notch as to where I can feel a half pedal a little better as I use that a lot. Push pulls are all about timing I've learned if you want a smooth easy playing guitar.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I don't know of any "west coast" experts (I.e. Oregon) that put springs on the lighter gauge string pulls, but that's the way my 78 P/P came from the factory. I removed the compression springs from strings 3,4 & 5 on the E neck and 3 & 4 on the C6th within hours of receiving it.

Following Larry Behm's lead, I also remove the pedal return springs too. Any unnecessary springs require extra effort to overcome & add stiffness. Used properly on the larger strings, they allow for smoother lever/pedal action when settling up changes to begin & end together which is essential for a good playing P/P

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Karen, you're 10th string raise spring is a little longer than I would use. Still, it worked before. So I'm going to guess you maybe changed your string gauges or even string brands can make a difference. Maybe you went from a stainless wound to a nickel? That can make a pretty substantial difference.

You're 5th string raise may now be bottoming out to soon. Since you have the compression spring on the 10th and not the 5th. The 10th should reach the stop just a little before the 5th. That's the main purpose of the spring.

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

Bobby, I moved the collar back a bit further from the bell crank on 5 because 5's pulling stop was bottoming out befor 10. That seems to have fixed it. I'm starting to understand it now. I'd love to find a copy of that mechanics book.
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Karen, sounds like you are on the right track. Just want to tell you that the pedal stop screws that are located where your pedal rods hook on are important too especially in the pedal feel. Just make sure they aren't hitting before the changer bottoms out on your pull. As I said before, if the changer is in tune, those pedal stop screws should hit about a hair after the changer hits. If they hit too soon, you will have tuning problems and too late, your pedals will feel mushy.

With adjustments on the collars on 5Th and 10th string in combination with the pedal stop screw, you should be able to balance pulls where both strings bottom out at changer at same time which will give you a nice smooth pedal feel. The collars and compression spring should not be putting any presssure on bell crank with pedals off. To much pressure of compression spring against bell crank could keep string from returning. If no compression spring like you have on 5th string, collar shouldn't even be touching bell crank.

As Bobby Boggs said, you my also want to experiment with compression spring length as this could also fit into the adjustment.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

thank you, yes I believe I am. Great info from everyone who chimed in. I plan to work more on the guitar tonight and will post any additional findings !
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Emmons, Franklin, Mullen

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

I misread the post.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Stereo Steel amp, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Karen Sarkisian · From: Boston, MA, USA

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi Karen,

Henry Matthews and others have explained the purpose of compression springs very well.

I'd highly recommend Clem Schmitz's bargain-priced booklet "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar" to any Emmons push-pull owner. Clem used to own a steel guitar store and repair shop in Minneapolis.

The 24-page booklet shows how to make simple adjustments to an Emmons push-pull or even take the entire guitar apart and put it back together. In his booklet, Clem explains step by step (with photos) exactly how to disassemble, re-assemble, and adjust push-pull guitars with several clever little tricks that would take a very long time to figure out. Very Happy

There are several pages just on recommended compression spring lengths and which hole of the changer finger to use for each string change.

He usually sells the booklet on eBay listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Guide Booklet" for $15.
He also sells a combo package of the book and 2 DVDs as " Pedal Steel Guitar METHODOLOGY P/P Book & DVD's Package" for $20.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Guitar-METHODOLOGY-P-P-Book-DVDs-Package-/280598597396?hash=item4154facf14:m:mq3a0o4iYsHWH3NaXQmX_lQ
I'd recommend the $20 "combo package".

I almost never need it, but itâ€™s great to have for the rare time when something does go wrong, and you have to leave for a gig in the next 30 minutes. Very Happy

If you can't find it on e-Bay, you can contact Clem at: freedomsauce@bellsouth.net

(In contrast, the 5-page "Wilderness Guide..." is a high-level conceptual overview--with none of the minute and critical details in Clem's booklet and DVD.)

- Dave

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Karen, if you're still having the problem with the 10th. string not returning to pitch, I might be able to help. Ran into this problem a few months back out of the blue and tried all the usual tricks but nothing seemed to work. I finally zeroed into the fact that my crossrod was caught up and not allowing the string to return. I put a drop or two of oil on it and fixed the problem. Now in the long run, you might want to remove the crossrod and put the appropriate grease in there whichever the experts recommend, but the oil trick worked for me.

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

John Lacey pointed out something I should have mentioned earlier. To add to John's post. If the pedals are stiff on the pedal rack? This can cause strings to return sharp after a raise. Particularly if the guitar is set-up with minimal slack. Which I prefer. The pedals on the rack should flop freely when the pedal rods are disconnected. No drag at all. This is an area that is often overlooked when folks lub their PSG's. If you don't won't to break the entire rack down. You can usually free them up by just dropping oil between each pedal and working them side-ways, (left to right.) as much as possible. As well as up and down.

When I lub spring loaded cross shafts. I push back and forth,(Front to rear apron.) to work in as much oil as possible.

Maybe someone will find this helpful.
b.

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Omg this thread is making my blood pressure rise. Exactly why I gave up playing push pulls!
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Sierra S10 (three!), Peavey 112 and 115, Benoit dobro, Beard Model E dobro, Beard Roadophonic, MSA Superslide, Dean Nickless custom dobro

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