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Topic: 3rd string returns flat |
Jim Hussey
From:
Reno, Nevada - USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 10:06 am |
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Last week, after years of reliable use, 3rd string began to act up. Following the half step raise, 3rd string would return a few beats flat. At first I didn't realize what was happening and just tuned the string. Soon the changer was overtuned. I've been searching for the cause, but have found nothing obvious. No ball ends or other junk in the changer. There is some lateral play between the 3rd and 4th string changers and it looks like there may be some amount of residue/drag between the 3rd string raise and lower fingers? I don't have anything connected to the 3rd string lower finger. But, if I manually operate the lower, it won't return true.
I've been a push pull guy for decades, so I'm not sure what to look for in an all pull changer (Franklin). Unless I'm missing something obvious, it's looking like it's time to remove the changer? |
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Jon Jaffe
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 10:47 am Tighten return spring
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You need to tighten your return spring. See red arrow. |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 12:44 pm
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Jim wrote his 3rd string is returning flat. While tighting the lower return spring can't hurt. I fail to see how it can help. If it was returning sharp. I'd say yeah.
I had this problem many years ago on a early LeGrande. Long before I started doing my on maintenance. Seems they - Emmons INC. had to replace the rivet that connects the raise and lower scissor.
Could be mistaken. Happened many years ago. I remember there was no charge. Ron apologized and paid the freight back.
EDIT. Now I taken a few mins to think about this. If the lowing scissor is riding along with the raise scissor and the spring is too loose. That could indeed cause the string to return flat. However, the lowering scissor really shouldn't be riding along with the raise scissor, if everything was 100%. But not knowing what make of guitar or the age. I'm just arm chair mechanicing.
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 1:04 pm
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It's me again. Sorry I need glasses. I see Jim's working on a Franklin. After sitting un-played for a while. They are pretty famous for binding where the raise and lower scissor are riveted. Just lube it good. It's kinda of a pain to get oil in there. But it can be done. I guess the easiest way is to remove the lower return spring. Then work the members back and forth by hand. Gee I'm getting dense in my old age.
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Jim Hussey
From:
Reno, Nevada - USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 11:02 pm
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It’s 11:30 PM now, so my thinking may be a bit muddled. Tightening the return spring may help short term, but why did this problem just pop up sudden like? It’s not like the spring broke or slipped on the adjusting screw. And – there is no lower on this string, so it’s not a failure to return after a lower.
Somehow the lower finger is impacting the changer even though there is no pull rod attached. It looks like the changer is actually returning too far and ending up flat following the half step raise. Is something binding between the raise and lower finger?
I’ve always been leery of over lubrication, but following the binding rivet theory, I applied some tri-flow and worked the changer. The problem persists. Maybe it will improve after the tri-flow has some time to soak in. Maybe I will have to remove the return spring and manipulate the joint at the rivet. I did notice this: following a raise, the changer finger returns too far and looks like the other changer fingers when a lower is engaged. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 11:10 pm
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Jim, try: putting on a new string (I currently use .012s, like Paul Jr.); and/or loosen the string and rotate the roller nut to a new position. Might help!
Or drive it up to Lynn Stafford, I'll meet you there! 
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▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Jim Hussey
From:
Reno, Nevada - USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2017 11:24 pm
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| Hey John. I've changed strings twice. Even went to an 11.5. It works for a while, but slowly the finger returns past pitch and goes further and further flat. Something's grabbing or engaging the lower finger. A drive to Lynn's place may be in order. Stay tuned! |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 9:04 am
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I have an early 80's ShoBud that was "well played" beefore I got it. I had the same problem you describe with my third string. When I tore the changer down it was obvious that several of the fingers were shot. These were the riveted pop metal fingers. Once replaced, with fingers from John Coop, I had no more problems. Not sure of the mileage on your guitar or the quality of the Frankin fingers, but moving parts do wear out. If all else fails it may be time to take a look.
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ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 2:59 pm
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I'd lube the pivot rivets. And change the strings.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bobby Boggs
From:
Upstate SC.
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Posted 3 Jul 2017 4:28 pm
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| Quote: |
| I'd lube the pivot rivets. |
That's my bet. Dropping oil on top of the changer finger will do nothing. Neither will changing strings. Remove the lower return spring. Clean out the gunk between the scissors. Lube, and work the raise and lower members back and forth.(Pull one forward, push the other back. Repeatedly). Till there's no drag other than the 3rd string pull rod. Which you may want to remove. Only takes a second to snap it out of the bell-crank. But I've never bothered to do that to correct a problem like you're experiencing.
Unless someone has taken the changer apart. Then assembled it wrong. This idea should get you going. Hope so.
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Jim Hussey
From:
Reno, Nevada - USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2017 5:32 pm
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Problem solved and I didn't have to remove the changer!
Following advice form you all, I did the following:
Removed the string - removed the pull rod, removed the raise helper spring, and finally the lower return spring. With the guitar upside down I applied tri-flo between the fingers, emphasis on getting oil to the rivet. Things began to move more freely. At the same time a fair amount of black gunk began to appear. I used a q-tip dipped in tri-flo to clean out as much of the gunk as possible. Cleaned up the excess, put everything back together, installed a new string, and everything tuned up fine. The changer is working perfectly.
Based on my success with the 3rd string changer, I went ahead and lubed all the other fingers. I also spent some time carefully cleaning and wiping up any excess. The guitar plays great.
This Forum is great! Thanks for your help. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 7 Jul 2017 1:54 am
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Black Gunk syndrome...Yipes.
The Steel is talking to you.
here is my 95 L-II, when I got it it was dripping with Back Gunk syndrome which means someone kept adding new lube on top of old lube, the lubes were NOT compatible, the new lube sat on top of the old lube.
A full tear down of both changers as well as cleaning the axles was in order. Do not overlook wear or grooves on the axle as being a culprit, if thats the case it will show it's ugly face again down the road. The return issue issue may be more axle/shaft related rather than rivet related.
Before and after. About 20 hours of labor over a two week period for full cleaning/lube, both necks.
Black Gunk Syndrome is gone.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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