| Author |
Topic: Diatonic Tuning, Ideas? |
Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 9:19 am |
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Diatonic Tuning, Ideas?
Just got in part trade a nice Fender Stringmaster D-8, My first D-8. Measures bridge to nut at 22&3/8" scale... Not 22.5?
Thinking about tunings and will use A6th for sure on one neck because I'm a little used to that and anything I learn there works on my E9th pedal steel too.
Been thinking about trying a diatonic tuning kind of like Jerry Byrd used at one time. He used it on the album of Japanese melodies I think.
I remember that Bob Lee also used it for a while some years ago.
Well so far I've been "Playing" it virtually on paper.
Seems to be an amazing tuning, so why don'e more steelers use it?
Looking here for input from anyone who has it now or used it in the past, pros & cons?
I'm thinking about this C Diatonic going from G to octave G.
Would even give a nice harp like sound when strummed slowly.
G to G because so many melodies start on the 5th tone of the scale.
So many chords here without even moving the bar, and then add forward or back slants and it seems like some kind of magic....
Also I like using plain strings and this could be done in all those.
Love to hear from people who have been there and done that for their opinion?
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 10:39 am Thanks Doug...
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Thanks Doug,
I will do that. Was kind of looking to see what others who have used it think, pros and cons.
There seems to be so much there, at least on paper.
Right now the steel seemed to have a C6 on the back neck and I tuned that to A6 because I've been working to learn that already. Even have some good licks worked out.
The front neck was out of tune but seemed to be some kind of E so I did that to E13th for now. But never have played that tuning though it seems a lot like E9 without the pedals... Not quite sure what to do with it yet.
Really thinking there would be more and some nice stuff in the diatonic and not the usual licks we hear all the time.
But if that were the case, why not many seem to use it?
Best wises,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 10:43 am Re: Diatonic Tuning, Ideas?
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| Andy De Paule wrote: |
Just got in part trade a nice Fender Stringmaster D-8, My first D-8. Measures bridge to nut at 22&3/8" scale... Not 22.5? |
Sounds like maybe the bridge needs adjusting.
If you play the 12th harmonic is it exactly over the 12th fret? If not you need to adjust the bridge. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 10:45 am Adventures in C Diatonic
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Thanks Andy,
Went right to your site and bought "Adventures in C Diatonic" so there is some material. Great.
With a name like "Andy" I know it must be a great book!  
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 10:48 am Re: Diatonic Tuning, Ideas?
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| Jeff Mead wrote: |
| Andy De Paule wrote: |
Just got in part trade a nice Fender Stringmaster D-8, My first D-8. Measures bridge to nut at 22&3/8" scale... Not 22.5? |
Sounds like maybe the bridge needs adjusting.
If you play the 12th harmonic is it exactly over the 12th fret? If not you need to adjust the bridge. |
Hi Jeff,
Yes the harmonic is right over the 12th and also up to half way to the 13th...
Don't matter too much because we really play by ear anyway. I was not too concerned, just wondered why that was the measurement?  
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 1:09 pm
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On behalf of Andys everywhere ... thanks!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 1:15 pm Re: Diatonic Tuning, Ideas?
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| Andy De Paule wrote: |
He used it on the album of Japanese melodies I think.
[/b] |
Funny you mention that....I've been messing around with a Chinese guqin, which is a fretless zither, tuned to CDFGACD, a pentatonic tuning. Part of the playing technique uses harmonics and the other part uses the left hand to fret notes overhand much like a steel guitar with no steel - including slides and vibrato.
I know that there are special Japanese kotos tuned to diatonic tunings, so JB would have fit right in. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 7:54 pm Re: Variations on those zithers
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| Andy De Paule wrote: |
My personal favorite to listen to is called Dan Bau, a Vietnamese one string (About 0.020 gauge) with a buffalo horn whammy bar. The player gets the harmonic with the palm of the right hand while plucking with what looks like an ice cream stick held between the thumb and index finger. |
They are really cool, and that's quite a technique used to play the Dan Bau. Many of them, as you noted, are now electric.
The thing that I find interesting about steel and guqin playing is the somewhat similar way the tonebar and thumb respectively are used to slide around:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkcvLB5jls8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh8tCtY0Wgk |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 29 Jun 2017 9:10 pm Yes that's a lot like what we do
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Hi David,
Yes that's a lot like what we do.
Trouble with the second one was the first three notes.... I kept thinking he was starting of his version of Blue Jade.
Years ago when I met Tom Bradshaw the first time he told me about the magazine he was starting "Steel Guitarist" and asked me to do a column on the history of the steel.
I was kind of taken aback because I didn't know where it had originated.
He said something like "Just go study and research and we'll do it".
I was young back then and agreed. I remember on my way home wondering what I'd gotten myself into.
Thought I'd be finding out about Hawaii? No such luck! Spent so many hours at the library at UC Berkeley and the one at UC SF, they were starting to wonder if I was some kind of nut.
Anyway, the farther back I went, I ended up studying the ancient instruments of East Asia and India and found connections from there to the sailors who opened up the world after the 1550's and later brought similar instruments to the islands. The people there in turn converted their guitars to be played in that same way.
I doubt the stories about someone dropping a knife down the guitar neck by accident and saying "Oh that sound good"... But people also like a good story, true or false.
Everything in the world connects if you go back far enough.
My column started in the 3rd issue.
I'd also traveled and done cassette tape interviews with Leo Fender, And Zane Beck, Speedy West and a few others. Unfortunately, for all my efforts the magazine had to be shut down before Tom lost his pants doing it.
Somewhere through many moves and three divorces the tapes got lost. But thats life.
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 3:22 am
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| Thanks for the story...man I wish that magazine would have taken off. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 6:40 am Lower quality, Not in the cards
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There were just not enough subscriptions back then. In 1980 there were only about 7 or 8 thousand steelers known at that time. If all of the had subscribed it would have been a break even deal.
Today I think Bob has about 17 thousand steelers registered on the forum, so the whole community has grown by more than double it seems.
Tom would have had to lower the quality of paper and all other aspects of the production to stay in business as a magazine. That was never in the cards because Tom has always done what he thought was the best that could be produced or not at all.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project.
Last edited by Andy DePaule on 30 Jun 2017 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 9:32 am OMG, the wonderful world of music
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OMG, the wonderful world of music just opened wide for me again!
Went to my local music shop yesterday evening and bought all the strings I figured I'd need for this diatonic tuning;
Didn't have time to put them on until this morning.
Cleaned up the steel while I was at it and had all the strings off.
Just finished stringing and tuning it 30 minutes ago to G A B C D E F G from low to high and the magic started.
Must understand that I'm a guy who does not even have good relative pitch, but just a love of music and the will to continue in spite of my flaws.
First three notes I played, the 3 top strings and there was "Till there was you"... From those first three notes I had the rest of the tune in less than 3 minutes it seems. This tuning is so very easy, I'm amazed many more steelers don't use it?
Haven't had this much fun since the first time I stepped on pedals.
Got Andy's download of his tab for Diatonic yesterday, printed it out but it's a little different from what I've done. Not yet sure why he leaves some diatonic notes out of the tuning, but sure I'll understand better once I get into the material.
The print out is a little small for my older eyes so I did screen shots and split some pages in half so they print out larger. That did the trick.
May have some time this evening to start in on it. Looking forward to that.
Until then, every tune I tried to find was right there and easy to find all the best chords and the melody. Even the harmonies are right there. Forward and back slants easy as pie because your usually playing every other string in the grips. 
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 11:28 am
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Andy, my goal for the diatonic book was to introduce 6-string players to the tuning while giving folks info to expand it to 7-strings and beyond if desired. There's so much there for 6 strings it'll keep you pretty busy!
I'm not sure why more folks don't explore it as there are wonderful sounds available and to me, it's very accessible - more so than Leavitt tuning. Byrd seemed to think it was completely out of reach for most players because they just didn't have the technical skills to handle it.
| Quote: |
| I never included it (diatonic tablature) in my stuff (catalog of arrangements) – The average person I know who I have given it to over the years could never figure it out – couldn’t play it at all. So it had no sale value other than somebody collecting paper. |
I'm not sure why he felt this way as it doesn't feel overly technical to me - especially if you have some familiarity with C6th. In any case, best wishes for your explorations!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 12:07 pm Indeed, I think it seems very easy.
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Hi Andy,
Indeed, I think the diatonic seems very easy, though I'm just at the beginning.
The grips are a little more spread out than say E9th for most playing, but as you said, for C6th and for me A6th the grips are often the same.
In that way I think it will benefit my 6th playing as well.
A big plus is the way it sounds so harp like when you strum up or down the scale.
I could see using that at the end or beginning of a solo in the same way a piano player does.
Now I've got this new to me D-8 set up with Diatonic on top and the A6th on the back neck. I was going to try out the E13th, but now will not bother with that until later.
Will be getting a T-8 from Todd in about a year and intend to have it on that too.
Then maybe I'll try out the E13th.
The only thing I can think I may change at a later date is to an A diatonic so all the basic positions will be at the same frets. I've had difficulty getting adjusted to C6th on my Promat for that same reason. E at the 4th seems so out of place.
A6th seems more natural because so much of E9th pedal steel is really being played from the pedals down position so almost all learned is transferable.
Compared to Jerry Byrd, we are all slackers so I understand why he thought that "It was completely out of reach for most players"! 
Is there a good reason you leave some scale notes out of your tuning?
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 12:53 pm
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Yes, the reason is because Byrd did it! I left out the D, because Byrd did and I eliminated the low E to make it a 6-string tuning. I include the chart for the 7-string version for those who want it. So, as I wrote in the book ...
| Quote: |
Jerry Byrd said that he tried adding a D string to the C Diatonic tuning but found it unworkable. This is likely because Byrd tuned by ear to Just Intonation and couldn‘t get the D in tune with both the G string and the A string. As you can see, the subject of tuning a steel guitar can get complex very quickly! According to scientist and steel guitarist Rick Aiello: "In the Key of C, with the root C tuned straight up (440 on a tuner), if the D is in tune with the G, the D (5th of G) would be +2 cents sharp of G. To be in tune with the A, the D (4th of A) would need to be -2 cents flat of A“.
Having the 2,5,6 notes of the scale all present in the tuning means that it is physically impossible to eliminate beats. So, rather than use an alternate tuning system, where neither note was in tune, Byrd chose to eliminate the D string from his set-up. Some players have experimented with extending the tuning on the bottom to eight strings. With a low D but the problem still persists. Legendary steel guitarist Bobby Black solution was to add a low C# string to his 8-string version of C Diatonic. |
I personally find the whole issue really challenges my math-averse brain. I agree that the harp-like runs are wonderful and unique to the diatonic tuning.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 2:11 pm "Math-averse brain" Yes me too.
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Hi Andy,
"Math-averse brain" Yes me too. Surprising because he was so good at slants and all we need do is adjust a shade to get it in tune, but I'd never argue with the Byrd on matters like this.
I'll just keep it in there then and for now stick to what I've done unless I find no use for that note.
Also didn't know Bobby used a diatonic, and also the reason for the C#'s I saw in some C6th tunings. Now I understand that.
Thanks for your responses,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 6:22 pm Sounds wonderful, Like all your playing
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Hi Doug,
Sounds wonderful, Like all your playing does....
I think you may be right about why a lot of steelers don't use it, but I see no real issue with not strumming though.
Like I said before, and I hear you did it in this tune you link to. The nice harp like strum at the end is a wonderful touch.
BTW, I've enjoyed a lot of your playing on youtube.
Best wishes,
Andy
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 6:24 pm A question Doug?
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A question Doug?
Do you also use it as a 6 string, 7 or 8?
What is your tuning on this?
I see now theres more than one tune on this so nice to listen to while I'm changing the pedal tuning on my Mullen.
Sounding wonderful.
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 30 Jun 2017 6:47 pm
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Thanks, Andy. I experimented with diatonic tunings a few years ago, when I made that recording, but I don't play diatonic as one of my main tunings. As I remember, I used John Ely's 8-string A diatonic tuning... but I tuned it down to G. So I think I played G diatonic on "It Was a Very Good Year".
Ely's A diatonic seemed more useful to me than Jerry's C diatonic at the time. But like I said, I just experimented with the tunings for a short time a few years ago and haven't played them since.
A Diatonic
(low to high) D F F# G# A B C# E
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