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Topic: Dumb Question But |
Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 4 Jun 2017 3:19 pm |
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Can someone out there clear a 'fog' for me, in terms I can understand !!
Why do we use 1.4.5 (CFG) as our Triads on E9th and not 1,3 and 5 (CEG) of say the C Major scale. My simple logic suggests it must the E9th tuning, but I can't get my head around it?
GregT |
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Bill Pleasant
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2017 7:45 pm
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| Sounds like you may be confusing the chords in the number system with the notes that make up a triad, which is one chord using the three notes in the scale CEG. The 145 notation would indicate the name of the chord to be played, 1=C chord, 4=F Chord, and 5=G Chord, assuming your playing in the Key of C Major. I'm not sure that what I have said states your confusion on the issue, but I do know that the first note, fourth note and fifth note of any scale is not a triad. By definition a TRIAD is a set of three notes stacked vertically in thirds (CEG, or FAC, or EG#B) the first note being the root note of the scale or key. |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 4 Jun 2017 9:18 pm Re: Dumb Question But
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Thanks Bill,
Was referring to all our E9th open/pedal down positions. C open, F A&B, G A&B for example Or D G A, A D E etc. I thought that can't be a Triad.
However, I can't work out why CFG DGE ADE etc etc are stacked that way on E9th.
I play say G to C to D and it works musically. Same with all similar note groupings. Am I missing something here or am I just thick?
Last edited by Greg Thompson on 4 Jun 2017 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2017 10:45 pm
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| Greg Thompson wrote: |
| However, I can't work out why CFG DGE ADE etc etc are stacked that way on E9th. |
Are they stacked that way on your guitar? It sounds like you are using a different tuning. Maybe your 6th string is tuned to A instead of G#? |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 4 Jun 2017 11:27 pm Re: Dumb Question But
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Tucker, sorry Typo meant D G A not D G E.
No 3&6 G# standard Emmons.
Further
C on 8 Open = C, A&B = F then two up A&B = G. My question why are we stacked that way in note progressions please? |
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Steve Geis
From:
Fayetteville, GA USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2017 5:00 am
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| the triads are stacked in different order with A&B pedals engaged, most often referred to as "inversion" of the chord. Not sure this is your concern or not, but a C chord in order, sequence or INVERSION is till a C chord. Does that maybe address the issue? |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2017 10:03 am
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This is from Dave Magram.
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Hi Greg,
You are confusing two different musical concepts: chord construction and chord progressions.
Possibly some of your confusion is because of an alphabet “shorthand†that many musicians use.
1.Chord Progressions:
You wrote: “Why do we use 1.4.5 (CFG) as our Triadsâ€. The answer is: “We don’t because “CFG†is not a triad, it is a chord “Progressionâ€.
Here’s what may be adding to your confusion on this point:
In music theory books, chord progressions are formally notated in Roman numerals, so a C, F, G chord progression would be formally notated as I, IV, V chord progression.
However, most working musicians use the Arabic numerals 1, 4, 5 for chord progressions because they are easier to read on a chord chart than Roman numerals.
For more information, see: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_progression[/url]
2. Chord construction:
A “triad†refers to the three notes that a primary major or minor chord is constructed with. As Bill explained in his post, a C major triad consists of these three notes: C, E, G.
C is the 1st note of a C major scale, E is the 3rd note of a C major scale, and G is the 5th note of a C major scale.
In other words, C, E, G are the “1, 3, 5†notes of the C major scale, and the the “1, 3, 5†notes of any scale make up the major triad of that scale.
For example, the major triad of the C major scale is constructed with the notes C, E, G.
The major triad of the G major scale is constructed with the notes G, B, D.
Minor triads also exist; a C minor triad consists of these three notes: C, Eb, G.
Additional notes can be added to a major or minor triad to form an “extended†chord; a C6 chord consists of C, E, G, A, and a C7 chord consists of C, E, G, Bb. *
For more information, see: [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad (music)[/url]
By the way, all of the above information is just as true on the E9 neck of a pedal steel, as it is on a piano, a six string guitar, a harp, or any other musical instrument (and that includes banjos!).
I hope this is helpful.
Dave |
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2017 1:28 pm
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As Dave Magram says, It has nothing to do with E9 tuning. No matter what instrument you play or how it is tuned, C/F/G are still the 1/4/5 chords in the key of C. It has to do with the note names' order of appearance in the alphabet of the C major scale:
C. D. E. F. G. A. B.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7
A triad can be formed starting on any degree of the scale. If you form a 1/3/5 starting with the 3rd note in the C major scale, you get EGB, an Em chord triad. On a number system chart, it would be written 3m or 3- |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 5 Jun 2017 2:14 pm Re: Dumb Question But
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Thank you so much guys. I know Triads are in 1/3rds above the root. I incorrectly named 1, 4, 5 as a Triad sorry.(Three notes)
What I am really trying to find out is why our E9th's (Emmons) are laid out with for example, Open C on 8, F directly below on A&B pedals then 2 up (10) gives you a G with A&B down. This chord progression has always worked well musically for me. But I can't figure out why these notes on an E9th are laid out in this manner. The same layout question applies right through the major scales. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2017 10:30 pm Re: Dumb Question But
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| Greg Thompson wrote: |
Thank you so much guys. I know Triads are in 1/3rds above the root. I incorrectly named 1, 4, 5 as a Triad sorry.(Three notes)
What I am really trying to find out is why our E9th's (Emmons) are laid out with for example, Open C on 8, F directly below on A&B pedals then 2 up (10) gives you a G with A&B down. This chord progression has always worked well musically for me. But I can't figure out why these notes on an E9th are laid out in this manner. The same layout question applies right through the major scales. |
Hi Greg,
If you understand how the 1-3-5 notes of a major scale make a major triad, and how C, F, G are a I, IV, V chord progression, then it is easy to answer your question.
If you don’t mind, let’s use the key of E for this illustration rather than the key of C, because the open E9 neck contains an E major triad.
The 1-3-5 notes of an E major scale are: E, G#, B, which of course is an E major triad, isn’t it?
It is important to understand that no matter how you sequence these 1-3-5 notes—E, B, G#, or B, E, G#, etc—this is always an E major triad.
Sit down at your steel and play these three notes at the open position: E, G#, B; this gives you an E major triad—correct?
Now step on the A&B pedals.
When you step on the A&B pedals (and it makes no difference if one’s pedals are in the Jimmy Day setup or the Buddy Emmons setup), the open G# note is raised to an A, and the open B note is raised to a C#, and the E note is not changed.
So with the A&B pedals down you now have A, C#, and E, don’t you?
If you count up the A major scale starting with A, you will notice that A is the 1st note, C# is the 3rd note, and E the 5th note, correct?
So by stepping on the A&B pedals you have changed an E major triad to an A major triad, haven’t you?
If you keep the A&B pedals engaged, and put your bar on fret 2, you have moved the A major chord up a whole step, making it a B major triad.
Does this all make sense so far?
If we return to the E major scale, and count up it starting with E, you will find that A is the 4th note of the scale, and B is the 5th note of the scale; meaning that E, A, B are the I, IV, V chords in the E major scale!
In other words, playing the open E, G#, B strings at any fret on your E9 neck gives you the I chord, stepping on the A&B pedals gives you the IV chord, and moving the bar up two frets with the A&B pedals still engaged gives you the V chord.
Pretty cool, isn’t it?
-Dave |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 6 Jun 2017 4:24 am Re: Dumb Question But
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Dave,
I'm going to cut,paste, and file your response if you have no objection, just for my own punishment- hehe.
Confession: I had missed this point for over a decade. Just twigged to it a few days ago and was a bit reluctant to post on the Forum (felt like a dummy).
Have followed the late great Jeff N's teachings verbatim and didn't review things until recently.
Found that note progression (any key) Open, A&B then Up two A&B (or reverse)1,4,5 is a musically pleasant cheap lick (most-times). The mindless bad habits we develop learning this beast.
Thanks for taking the time to reply
GregT
Last edited by Greg Thompson on 6 Jun 2017 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2017 9:04 am
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Regarding the E9 layout---
Without A&B pedals, then the bar would have to be moved up 5 frets from the 1 chord to get to the 4, and two more frets above that to get to the 5, then you would have to slide up another 5 frets or down 7 to get back to the 1 chord. This is the challenge non-pedal steel and slide guitar players have. Having the pedals and levers make pitch changes to various strings allows the pedal steel to be played "in position", with dozens of chords and inverted voicings within reach of two or three frets. Less bar movement, more possibilities.
You can experience non-pedal guitar difficulties by simply not using the pedals or levers on your pedal steel and try to make the same chord changes and voicings. Still fun, but...
That is my attempt to address the "why?" part of your question, if I understood you correctly. I think Dave aced the rest of it. |
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Greg Thompson
From:
Taumarunui, New Zealand
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Posted 6 Jun 2017 2:06 pm
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Fred,
That makes a whole lot of sense and logic
Regards
GregT |
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Don Kuhn
From:
Poetry/Terrell ,Texas, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2017 11:09 am
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| WOW Thanks Rickey for sharing David's info and Thanks David for explaining it further and to Fred, Steve and Tucker for you input. Greg that was a Great question to ask and like you I'm a going to have to save this info. |
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Jim Reynolds
From:
Franklin, Pa 16323
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Posted 4 Aug 2017 12:08 pm
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Greg, I'm sure others have answered this better, and I could be wrong. Here is my understanding. The Triad, are the note in a chord, which are, normally 1,3,5, but the chord progression is 1,4,5. If you were doing a song say, in C, the progression would be, (Example Only) C, C7th, F, G7th, or just C, F, and G. The C7th would be like a tension chord, telling your going to F, then the G7th, could be a G then to G7th, telling your going to C. This will all come to you. Just keep it up.
_________________
Zum U-12, Carter SDU-12, Zum Encore, Emmons S-10, Emmons D-10, Nashville 400, Two Peavey Nashville 112, Boss Katana 100, Ibanez DD700, Almost every Lesson Jeff Newman sold. Washburn Special Edition Guitar, Can never have enough, even at 80. 1963 Original Hofner Bass bought in Germany 1963, and a 1973 Framus Bass also bought in Germany 1974. |
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Jim Morris
From:
Cincinnati Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2017 12:53 pm
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Not hat it needs any verifying by me, but Rickys post is correct. A C major traid will consist of 3 chord tones; C, E AND G, which is the root (1), the 3rd and the 5th...this is where you are getting 1,3,5. 1,4,5 is a chord progression using the number system.
Basically, the number system goes like this if u don't know: there are 7 letters in the musical alphabet, A through G. The root note, or the key off the song is always 1. Now just say your alphabet. If the root note, or 1, is... say D, then 2=E, 3=F. 4=G, 5=A,6=B, 7=C.
So when you are talking 1,4,5 it is the chord progression, not the chord tones in the triad. I'm pretty much just reexplaining what has been said already, but sometimes a different explanation can help.
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1981 Emmons P/P, P2P Bad Dawg 1x12, Benado Steel Dream, Goodrich L120 volume pedal & BJS bar |
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