Tempered Tuning Question

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

I am a bit baffled. When I tune my steel, in the open position, I have the beats tuned out perfectly and it sounds great. When I move my bar up to the fifth fret and play an A triad on 3,4 and 5, the third string is sharp. I hear the beats come back. Best I can do is use a little bar slant to true things up.

So, is this a normal anomaly of the instrument? Do you think it could just be a bad string? I'm just curious if others deal with this sort of thing.

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

The weight of the bar plus whatever pressure you are adding can make a string go a little sharp.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

It is in the nature of the beast. See this thread: Ever been out of tune on a recording??? link: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/009120.html
Covers more ground than you want to know, but might lend some ideas.

Charlie the Tuner

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 27 April 2005 at 06:35 AM.]

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Oh man--I see that I'm treading into territory thats full of controversy. I read the thread mentioned and that took me to the JI vs ET debate in another thread. All very interesting. Its got me wanting to try ET tuning and do some recording experiments, etc.

Anyway, the links have provided me with much more information than I needed to know! Just when I thought I had this whole tuning issue under control!

David Doggett · Posted 27 Apr 2005 11:46 am

Al, it doesn't have to be that complicated. Tune your Es to a tuner. Then tune everything else by ear until it sounds good to you. Move the bar up the neck and tweak things a little if it sounds like you need to. Play a little with the unique mix of instruments in your band. Ask them to play hold a chord and listen to how you sound with them. If something sounds out, tweak it a little. Then you just mash them pedals and slide that bar all up and down that neck until your third string breaks. That's what it's all about.

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

Jeff Newman's compensated tuning works for me. However, when playing up past the 15th fret, I play a bit to the sharp side and it sounds warmer and more in tune.

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

What David said!!

Except I do it a little differently,, I tune straight up first,, then tweak from there!

Seems to work ok' for me.

Yeah then I break my 3rd string!!

------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Well, I've got that breaking the 3rd string part pretty together!

Actually, when I first got my steel, I tuned straight up to the tuner, but it never sounded right to me. Then I read about Jeff Newman's compensated tuning. I bought a fancy Korg tuner and started tuning to the compensated or just intonation. To me, it sounded a million times better.

Now, I've been reading about players such as Buddy Emmons, who's tuning straight up to equal temperament. Of course, he sounds fantastic and this makes me want to give ET another shot.

I've always hated it when anything in the band sounds out to my ear. I can't even play when things get out of tune. So, I'm going to try ET and see how it blends with other instruments. The worst thing that can happen is that I won't like it and I'll go back to a compensated tuning. I hear guys who play with both and they all sound good to me. Meanwhile I'll head down to the music store and stock up on .012's for my third string...I know I'll be needing them!

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

I think what I've learned from all these different opinions,, Is what ever works the best for each one of us is the way to go!!

Larry

------------------
Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Dave Horch · From: Frederick, Maryland, USA

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I go with the Davids.

But let me elaborate. In piano tuning, there are two approaches, from A and from C. I use an early Korg (they're great) to set both those notes, so I'm starting with an equal temperament. Then I set a strong 5th--almost 'just'--with the F below, same thing as getting a strong E-B 5th. So I've compensated already.

You can't get around compensating to your own tastes. Don't get your brain in a tizzy before you start playing!

David Doggett · Posted 28 Apr 2005 9:59 am

After tuning my Es to the meter, I tune everything else by ear because it is faster for me. If I can't hear (or if I'm on stage and don't want people to hear me tuning) here's my method with my Boss TU-12H meter.

I tune all my open strings to 441 (+4 cents). When I press my pedals I have cabinet drop of 2 hz (-8 cents) on my open strings. So if I tune open to 441, I will be at 441 without pedals, and at 439 with pedals down. Then, if I play at the nut without the bar, I will always be within 1 hz (4 cents) of 440, which is an imperceptible difference to most listeners. If I tuned my open Es or pedaled As to exactly 440, then the other position would be off by 2 hz (8 cents), which is noticeably out of tune to listeners compared to other members of the band tuned straight up to 440.

For JI, I tune open strings 4 and 8 (and 11 on a uni) 3 hz (12 cents) flat of 441. These are the 3rds of the open E chord. I also tune that way on string 2, which is the 3rd of the G chord triad on strings 1, 2, and 5. String 2 is also the major 7th of the E scale, and for JI should be about 12 cents flat of straight up.

So basically, I tune all the strings to 441, then tune strings 2, 4, and 8 (and 11 on a uni) to 438, and I'm done - which is pretty much like what Larry S. said. If I tune the Es to 441 and everything else by ear, and then look at the meter, it is very close to what I described on the meter above.

To get back to the original question, Bob B. is right. Bar and hand pressure up the neck affect the different gauges of string differently. So to be really precise, I tune the Es to 441 at the nut, then take the bar up to the 8th fret and tune all the other strings by ear there. But this is a really subtle difference, and not something one needs to worry about most of the time.

For the pedal and knee stops, once I have tuned the Es to 441 at the nut, and have tuned all the other strings very carefully with the meter or by ear, I take the bar to the 8th fret and tune the stops very carefully by ear. You have to tune the stops to the open strings in each chord without changing the tuning of any strings at the keyhead. If I check a meter, my stops are very close to the Newman chart.

Some rough rules of thumb for JI are:

Roots, 4ths and 5ths straight up 440 (or something like 441 to deal with cabinet drop)

Major 3rds and Major 7ths 3 hz (12 cents) flat of straight up

Minor 3rds and Minor 7ths 3 hz (12 cents) sharp of straight up

6ths 4 hz (16 cents) flat of straight up

2nds 1 hz (4 cents) sharp, or straight up.

It is way easier for me to tune all this by ear than to try to remember it and use a meter on every note. Fortunately, I don't have to mess with the pedal and knee stops very often. If I tune them up once a month or so, and don't let the strings get too old, I only have to tune the strings when I get to a gig.

If you want to tune everything straight up ET, then you can forget all the above, except you might want to do something like I do for cabinet drop. For me that would mean everything 441 without pedals, or 439 with pedals down. By the way, Buddy Emmons says he sometimes flats his thirds a little, depending on the situation. I think very few people tune everything straight up all the time. That would be more time consuming and tedious for me than to tune by ear. So it is not necessarily simpler.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 April 2005 at 11:12 AM.]

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Thanks to all for the tips--especially David Doggett for going the extra mile with that explanation. Now I have some experimentation to do! Again, I sure appreciate all the help. I love this forum!

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Edition below.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 April 2005 at 10:49 PM.]

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

DD.

Here's Buddy's direct quote:

quote:
I may go a cent or so flat in some cases but strictly to handle temp changes under certain conditions.

Also when I hear a JI steel third in a ET track, flat is the only word I can come up with. -Buddy Emmons-

He doesn't "sweeten" his thirds.

You have posted an incredible amount of good information, and a good lot of things to think about. Especially about the layering sequence of recording.

My only difference is that you have seemed to premise too much of it, or postulate in an overassuming manner for my taste.

Mainly leaving the impression that nobody could possibly tune or play in "Equal Temperament" without mechanical assistance or being in offense of well trained ears.

I get the idea that now the 6 string guitar is also a JI instrument, and that electronic keyboards are irrelevant, and poorly intoned or tuned instruments, much as harps, xylophones, glocklenspiels, pianofortes, and violins.

I know that is simply not correct, and had I as much time as I did last year, I would engage directly each and every overassuming premise and postulation regardless of minutia.. Mostly assuming and inferring inability of all players of fretless instruments to tell flat thirds when they hear them or play them.

If you want my opinon, it is that the poorly intoned non-fixed instruments too often take the more comfortable lazy and easy way my "following the beats", or in other words, "Counting" instead of "Hearing". I hear it when I hear high school orchestral ensembles a lot more than I do the "high class" ones with more experience of not playing the "easy way".

They typically go as far out as 28 cents, (the gap in the most famous JI Tuning chart) and I can hear it in an instant.

Rhetorically, I have to ask myself, "Why is that, if not playing 'comfortably' out of lack of discipline?".. (I also remind myself that both can last a lifetime, and be attendant to renoun and fame.)

I think Al asked why the intonation on his rig seems to be different at higher frets.

My guess is that the nose of the bar is bending the thinner strings more, or there are deep grooves or other anomalies in one or more changer or roller nuts. That will change intonation in that space.

He's saying that at the fifth fret there are "beats" that weren't there in the open position.

Anyhow, to Al:

Take your strings off to the side of your nut rollers, and see if there are "flat spots" in any of them as you roll them around. Check your fingers at the bridge end to see if there are any grooves in them that might affect them or that you might be using a set of strings that have end windings that are goin' over your finger apexes. (not too likely.)

Good luck.

EJL

PS

AL. If it were I, as it was 25 some years ago, I'd tune to a good tuner, (like I did for nearly 20 years of playing guitar before that), and learn to play in tune, not being too distracted by all the fancy "tuning charts" when they tell you to tune 12 cents flat here and 10 cents sharp there to be more in tune..

There'll be time enough for that..

There's an awfull lot of long time players including Buddy Emmons that tune simply to what the tuner says, and go for it.

You won't read as much from us, as most of us have given up being argued with about it...

Save a stubborn heretical few..

Don't make it too easy, but don't make it impossible...

[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 April 2005 at 10:53 PM.]

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: