Double; Single or 12 ?

Dillon Jackson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Newbie Question: Most folks seem to be moving up from a student model (if they started modest)somewhere in the 4 months to 1 year range. Makes sense to make sure you are not totally defeated by the instrument before laying out the bigger bucks. So . . .Is it preferred to go for a good single or get the double? One can say "don't complicate your life with C6," but hey, one tab is just is tough and strange as another in the early stages and I am not all that sure that learning both tunings at the same time would be all that bad. What do you old hands think?

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Hi Dillon. I'm a weekend warrior musician and have been playing steel for 15 years. I started on a MAverick student model and went to an s-10 and then a d-10 and recently to a single 12 universal tuning. If I was starting out, knowing the little I know now, I would go with a single 12 universal. It has everything the standard d-10 has as far as changes go and it's lighter in weight.

Just my 2 cents.

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Dave Zirbel-
ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, S-12U Kline 7 x6, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb, PV NV112
The Mother Truckers
The Cowlicks

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Check out this article before you decide.

Good Luck

Ron

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I played for 25 years before I decided to start to learn C6th. That was about 7 years ago. I still play 90% on the E9th and I wouldn't miss the C6th much if it wasn't there.

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

The basic rules adhered to by the majority of players and almost all of the major players is that if you confine yourself to traditional country, country rock, and top 40 country/pop, you won't need more than 10-string E9. If you intend to get into other styles seriously, including Western swing, jazz, big band, blues, funk, etc., then the C6 will be valuable so your choice would be a D-10. However, like with all rules, there are notable exceptions. The U-12 Universal tuning is the second most popular tuning and there are a number of players, including a couple of icons, who can play anything on that tuning. At least one monster player plays jazz on 10-string E9 as though it is on C6. And there's a group of Sacred Steel players that are breaking out into the popular rock and blues scenes playing incredible stuff on an E7 tuning specifically geared to rhythmic comping and deep blues/rock in the style of some of the legends on 6-string guitar. And there are other alternatives as well. It is easy for it to become extremely confusing to a newbie. Bottom line: if you feel safest doing things the way the majority does, then the rules I initially pointed out at the beginning are the ones to follow. If you are convinced that there is something else out there that will work better for you, then go for that. Using the Forum's search feature would allow you to find some of the lengthy threads comparing and debating the E9/C6 vs. Universal tunings. Fundamentally, every tuning has unlimited (but not identical) possibilites so you can't go wrong with any of them. Another point is that, at the risk of being argumentative, you absolutely can NOT play on a Universal U-12 tuning everything that can be played on E9/C6 D-10. By the same token, you can NOT play on an E9/C6 everything that you can play on a Universal. They are different tunings. While it is true that different playing styles can be shared between the tunings, you can NOT make the case that note-for-note and chord-for-chord, either one can be completely transferred to the other.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 15 March 2005 at 12:05 AM.]

Al Carmichael · From: Sylvan Lake, Michigan, USA

Jeff makes some very good points--in fact, he pretty much covers the bases on this topic. I am responding because I play a 12 universal and thought you might like to hear my limited perspective.

When I started out, I had a borrowed Maverick and then bought a similar student model--one knee and three floor pedals. I quickly found out that there were a lot of things I couldn't do with that limited setup. I had a couple of friends who loaned me their steels. The first was a single neck Emmons E9. I loved that and learned a bunch of new stuff.

Then, I decided I wanted to buy a steel for myself, but the Emmons wasn't for sale. I called another friend who had a Sho Bud universal 12 and it turned out he was interested in selling it. Still, he said I should try it for a while before I made my mind up to buy, so I did. Finally, I ended up getting that steel.

Almost all my playing has been on the E9 side since then. My taste runs toward straight ahead country and I figure now that I could have been quite happy with a single neck E9. The B6 side is still there and I plan to explore it soon, but it hasn't been put to use yet.

Even so, there is a very cool low octave on the 12 that you won't have on a 10 string E9. Now, the setup on a universal is different, which you should be aware of. The A, B and C pedals are the same as an E9 but the knee levers are in different places that a trad E9. Also, the pedals for the B6 are in a different order than a regular C6. The knees and pedals do the same things, pretty much, but they are laid out differently. This means if you spend a few years on a universal and decide to jump to a single 10 or a double neck, you will have some re-training to do.

Some players won't care but others might just have a hard time unlearning what they learned.

The big question is basically what kind of music do you want to play. I think you could be happy with either a single 10 or a universal if you want to play E9 style country. If you want to get into swing and Buddy Emmons type jazz stuff, the traditional double neck might be a better choice. Of course, I haven't played much B6, so I don't know if it is more limited than a dedicated C6 neck.

Having come this far on the universal, I think I would have some trouble moving to a double neck or even, to some degree, a single 10 E9. If you just want a E9, once you learn on one, you can move easily from steel to steel--if you are the kind of guy who changes guitars often, this might be a thing to consider.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I started out on a D-10 because that is what all the pro's used, so I thought it made sense at the time. My plan was to learn the E9 country and gospel stuff, then once I had "mastered" the E9, I would take on the C6th and learn some Western Swing. Well, 30 years later, I am still working on the E9th! I went to a Universal for about 15 years, still just pretty much played E9th on it. Dabbled with the 6th side a bit. I now have an Extended E9, which I plan on keeping forever. The type of music you want to play pretty much dictates what you should buy. When I think of Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley, JD Maness, etc. whom are some of my heroes on steel, they have made quite a career out of being E9th players. If you want to try your hand at all types of music, then a Universal or Double 10 would be the way to go. If you want to play country and gospel, then E9th is all you will ever need. There is enough on it to learn to last you a lifetime. A single 10 is so much lighter to lug around.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Dillon Jackson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

This is really helpful stuff and I want y'all to know I appreciate the info. Meanwhile I'll keep practicing.

Thanks Guys.

Dillon Jackson · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Postscript: Digesting all that advice and then the serendipidus advent of a Zum 12 for sale on the forum at a nice price had me go for the 12. The option of extended E9 was a consideration and I am still a total newbie--but getting the setup that will last as long as I play just seemed like the best way to progress.

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Dillon Jackson
abiband.com

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Hey, Jeff
I'm just curious.
Can you give me an example of something one could play on a D-10 that couldn't be played on a U-12? I suspect that such a thing might exist but I haven't come across it in the 30 or so years I've been playing a U-12.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

*

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 March 2005 at 03:41 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Larry, one tune that comes to mind would be Doug Jernigan's "Bonnie Marie" which he plays on both necks. He strums some sustaining chords on one neck while playing the melody on the other. I'm a U-12 player myself but I think that's cool the way he does this.....JH in Va.

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Actually, Jerry, I have worked up that tune almost note for note on a U-12 -- MANY years ago -- just to see if it could be done. I believe I did it in B instead of C, however.

And, that one doesn't count.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

...get a D-10..it has better resale value, and it looks better on stage...

Bill McCloskey · Posted 4 Apr 2005 12:24 pm

Dillion,

I'm in no position to advise anyone, but I was in the same position you are in and I did all the research on the forums and weighed the pros and cons of all the options. I changed my mind a few times along the way as well.

In the end, I decided to go with the U12. I hope to take delivery on it soon. I'll let you know how it goes. For me, the country aspect was less important as I don't see myself playing a lot of country music, but I figured there would be enough of it on U12 for me for any that I would want to do. I was much more interested in Jazz, blues, rock, and more experimental things and I figured the U12 would give me more of what I wanted for that.

The other big objection to the U12 is lack of instructional material, so that might weigh on your decision as well. It was less important to me, since I think a good grounding in theory is the best instruction there is.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Bill.. you made the right decision.. A lot of players play C6 because they started on it, got used to it and play it well.. A Uni 12 will give you all you will ever need, to play anything you will ever need to play. I am too far along to relearn and just play E9 single 10's,but if I were to start today, I'd make the same decision you did... bet of luck! bob

db · From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Lately I prefer a D-12.

db · From: Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA

Bobby,
What is the big differecnce between the two necks on a D-12 ?
As aposed to a U-12 or Extended 12?
What do you get with one and not the other?
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

[This message was edited by db on 04 April 2005 at 10:16 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Larry, I didn't realize you had responded to my post so sorry about getting back to you so late. Can I pick something that can be played on a D-10 but not on a Universal? I'm pretty sure that every jazz solo piece I have ever posted could not be played note for note. This is because there are many times when I would be using both knees concurrently. If I had to dedicate a knee to lowering the E's to Eb, then I couldn't do the rest of what I was doing. On the other hand, if there was a knee lever lock on the U-12, then that wouldn't be an issue, but then, it wouldn't be a U-12, but rather a B6 (i.e. C6) tuning. Another issue is that I'm pretty sure I have my right knee levers dedicated to the E9 and C6 which, were it a U-12, would force me to choose one or the other changes. Please keep in mind that I haven't done a formal study, just used logic. Also, please keep in mind that this does NOT point to the superiority of one over the other, and I'm totally cognizant of the huge versatility of the U-12 because of the range of strings and pedal chnages. I'm simply answering your question about where everything I play on C6 can be played on a U-12, which in my case I believe to be no. Regards .. Jeff

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

quote:
Bobby,
What is the big differecnce between the two necks on a D-12 ?
As aposed to a U-12 or Extended 12?
What do you get with one and not the other?

I've been playing extended E9th for 28 years. I really don't like to play E9th with less than 12 strings. I'm very much addicted to playing rhythm and "invisible" chord parts in the low range.

My back neck is like a 12 string C6th, with D strings inserted between the C's and E's. I like it a lot but it's sort of hard to play if you're used to a standard C6th - you have to skip strings. Most people who play 12 string C6th add strings on the outside so that they're not in the way of the standard jazz stuff. I'm not very interested in the steel guitar jazz sound so I took a different approach that makes sense to me.

A U-12 is designed to get most of the C6th steel guitar jazz sounds and most of the E9th sounds. I have all of the E9th including the D string in my Extended E9th. I don't have much use for the typical C6th jazz sounds so the E9/B6 doesn't appeal to me. I use my "expanded C6th" mainly to get different kinds of phrasings that are awkward on the E9th, not to play a different kind of music. I don't perform on C6th much but I do enjoy playing it in my living room.

Back to the "newbie question" - I don't see any reason to try to learn two necks at once. All of the notes are there on one neck. I don't buy into the notion that you need to have C6th to play jazz, or that E9th is only for country. It takes many years to partially learn any steel guitar tuning.

A 12 string, however you tune it, gives you a low range that you don't get from the 10 string E9th. Those low notes aren't important if, like Lloyd Green or Jerry Byrd, you view the steel guitar exclusively as a lead instrument.

There is more music to be found in the 10 string E9th than you can find in your lifetime. If the lead instrument voice is your main attraction to the pedal steel, you don't need anything more than an S-10 E9th.

It's just my opinion, of course. I am not a pro. The usual disclaimers apply.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I would also add the point that, given the full range of what can be played on a D-10 vs. U-12, that logically more of the D-10 can be played on a U-12 than visa versa. Of course, if one were to get a D-12, then they could in principle do more than any of the others. Whether an E9 S-10, U-12, E9/C6 D-10, E9/C6 D-12, extended 12-string E9, or sacred steel E7, any tuning is unlimited in possibilities.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 06 April 2005 at 06:51 AM.]

Jay Jessup · From: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Dillon,
I am not sure from your post how your new 12 Zoomer is set up at the moment but embedded in the middle of Bobby's post is a very important point that was briefly touched on in another thread recently and that's having the 9'th string D as you would in a extended E9. The U-12 crowd (I was one once) will argue that's it's available on a knee which is correct and I would agree that in the early stages of E9 playing it's not all that important but as you advance having that string right there (you need to have the C# lower on it too) will become very important. If your taste extends beyond country buy the Emmons Christmas album and Expedition E9 album to get a feel for what's availble on the standard E9 that doesn't sound at all like E9.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Dillon,
Please don't base your decision about what tuning/steel to use only on the information you get from a chat room !

Track down some real live players in your town and check out there steels and playing. Its more fun and you will actually know what you are doing when you decide.

Whatever you do have fun and practice more !

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Bob
intonation help

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