| Author |
Topic: Compensators on E9th Neck |
Gary Arnold
From:
Panhandle of Florida, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2017 9:56 pm |
|
| What strings do you need a compensator on ? Thanks, Gary |
|
|
 |
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 26 Feb 2017 10:31 pm
|
|
There isn't a simple answer to your question. It depends on how you tune, how much your steel detunes (cabinet drop), whether you use a wound or plain sixth string (which is the worst offender for detuning), and what your ear tells you.
Also to be considered is how well a particular compensator works on your steel. I've tried a number on both my Emmons and my Williams and I only use one because that's the only one I could make work reliably.
Having said all that, here are some compensators I've tried and abandoned:
1) lower the seventh string a bit when the B pedal is down, &
2) raise the sixth string a bit when the A pedal is down.
They both improved the tuning to my ear but presented other problems.
The compensator that I have kept lowers the first string fairly significantly when I use the knee lever that lowers the second string a half tone. I have a video on YouTube about that one, and I use it all the time.
There are almost certainly other compensators people use.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 26 Feb 2017 11:56 pm
|
|
When I tuned to just intonation*, I had a compensator on my 7th string. I tuned the F# note to be a major 3rd above the 9th string D, because I use the D as the root tone a lot (with the G# raised to A). Basically, the F# was tuned flat.
The compensator raised my 7th string about 10 cents to be in tune with B when I lowered my E strings (the "B6th position").
*I no longer tune this way, so I don't need a compensator now.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 27 Feb 2017 12:25 am
|
|
I bump my plain 6th strings on all of my pedal steels. I press pedal A and adjust any effect of body flex out on the G# 6th string. I also bump my 1st F# string also when A & B are depressed.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 4:19 am
|
|
6th string for the A+F
Both F#s |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 5:31 am
|
|
I've never used this type of compensator. Either on the D-10 Emmons PP I had or my current Franklin D-10.
I use the Jeff Newman sweetened tunings in my Peterson tuner.
There is cabinet drop but I don't let it get the best of me. As Bruce Boutin says in his talk tape, everything is a compromise. Just play the darn thing. |
|
|
|
Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 6:31 am
|
|
My thoughts exactly Jack.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
|
|
|
Fred Rushing
From:
Odin, IL, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 8:05 am Tuning
|
|
Bob what is the link you posted to your current method of tuning which is off the F# at 440?
Fred |
|
|
|
Greg Lambert
From:
Illinois, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:25 am
|
|
| What does the compensator look like ? |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:37 am Re: Tuning
|
|
| Fred Rushing wrote: |
Bob what is the link you posted to your current method of tuning which is off the F# at 440?
Fred |
I think you're referring to meantone temperament, which I documented in this post: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2562242&highlight=meantone#2562242
It's not what I actually use for E9th, though. My E9th is much simpler than that. Here's what I do:
- tune E, B, and D to +5
- tune F# to 0
- tune G# and D# to -5
- tune A to 0
- tune C#, A# and the C pedal F# to -10
- tune F lever to -15
- tune G and C (splits) to +10
It's not perfect. It's technically out of tune, but not enough to bother me. Sometimes I tweak the A pedal or F lever by ear a bit, but I never change the open string tuning. This tuning method doesn't require compensators.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 2 Mar 2017 9:51 am; edited 5 times in total |
|
|
|
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:41 am
|
|
| Greg Lambert wrote: |
| What does the compensator look like ? |
I can't speak for every compensator ever used, but on my steels it looks like normal raise or lower linkage, because that's what it is. For instance, a compensator on the seventh string to lower the pitch slightly when the B floor pedal is engaged is just an extra lowering rod connected to the cross shaft of the B floor pedal.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
|
|
|
Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 7:46 pm
|
|
| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
6th string for the A+F
Both F#s |
I have tried what Ken is doing on my ShoBud.
Don't have it on the Carter, and don't really "miss" it.
I can see how easy it would be to chase your own tail. |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:09 pm
|
|
I gave up on them, and I have a barely modified ET.
Everything tunes to 0, with the exception of A#, C#, D#, E#/F and G#. Those tune between 4 and 6 cents flat. People who use the F lever a lot might want to flatten it 8-10 cents. The way I play, it's my least used lever.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:48 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| People who use the F lever a lot might want to flatten it 8-10 cents. The way I play, it's my least used lever. |
Funny, Lane. The way I play, it's my most used lever.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 2 Mar 2017 9:51 pm
|
|
Yup. Different vocabulary. Generally if I'm going to use 4 or 8 as a third, it's with lowered Es.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
|
Posted 3 Mar 2017 12:16 am
|
|
| Paul Sutherland wrote: |
.. here are some compensators I've tried and abandoned:
... raise the sixth string a bit when the A pedal is down.
(it) improved the tuning to my ear but presented other problems.
|
What problems Paul? I am planning to add this compensator to my guitars next month. Is there a reason for me not to do this?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
|
|
|
John Brock
From:
Xenia, Ohio
|
Posted 8 Mar 2017 12:33 pm Compensater
|
|
There are several youtube vids by paul sutherland on this subject. I get the concept.For me I go with jeff newmans tuning. It creates a more positive tone for my guitar. And i can still use the f# ....in any way..I have it to g# on the rkl.....works for me...hope im right.
_________________
GFI S10 Nashville 400 Epiphone J200 Kentucky BM650 Mandolin Fender 112 Alvarez 5018 12
Rus-Ler Deluxe |
|
|
|
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
|
Posted 8 Mar 2017 1:18 pm
|
|
| I have had lots of D-10's and now a S-12 E9th extended and a S-12 with an E9th/C6 lock lever change over. All of them are a rats nest to tune but I can play in tune to my ears with the steel alone or in a band without any compensators. The steel is never perfectly in tune with itself or anything around it. It helps tremendously if the band has good dynamics and no two guitar or lead instruments are playing loudly at the same time. That way tuning differences don't stand out as much! Like most of you I use a combination of varying the bar pressure front to back or slanting it slightly to achieve acceptably in tune results. On sustained multi-note passages I generally pull the strings behind the bar to get them in tune if needed. It's an art! |
|
|
|
Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
|
Posted 8 Mar 2017 1:37 pm
|
|
Surely this all becomes a bit academic once you start playing and especially when you use vibrato? Playing is such a dynamic event, add vibrato and the whole thing is now riddled with notes going sharp and flat by more than just a few cents in fairly rapid succession. Are we in danger of over-analysing this a bit?
The static tuning is one thing, but once strings begin vibrating and harmonics start to enter into the event, there is a synthesis of sound which must surely swamp any minute variations in the static tuned notes? (I use the sweetened E9th and C6th tunings in the Peterson Strobo-Flip tuner - they work for me.)
How did Buddy Emmons tune? How did John Hughey tune? Once they started playing, who cared!
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
|
|
|
Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
|
Posted 8 Mar 2017 3:58 pm
|
|
Mike: On my Emmons PP that compensator added extra pedal pressure (which was no big deal), and it came on at the last bit of pedal travel (which I found to be the real problem). The extra little notch in the pedal action caused me at times to not fully engage the pedal, and thus tuning problems. I simply play better without the compensator. I'm aware that sixth string goes flat and work around it.
On my Williams I found some of those same issues, plus when I went from A & B pedals down to just the A pedal (or to A and F lever), the sixth string would did not drop in pitch to the proper compensated G#. It seemed to bind up in the changer for some reason. If I released the floor pedals entirely and then engaged the A pedal (or A and F) it worked perfectly. But for some reason I couldn't rock between the combinations without having significant tuning issues.
I really wish I could get this compensator to work without the above issues because I can definitely hear an improvement in the sweetness of chords when the sixth string doesn't go way flat.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 8 Mar 2017 9:53 pm
|
|
Paul,
What you describe with the 6th string remaining slightly sharp when the B pedal is released but the A pedal remains pressed is quite possibly the A pedal cross-shaft flexing slightly.
When the A pedal is used alone, it nudges the 6th string up a bit (as well as the 5th and 10th strings), thus putting a tad more strain on the A pedal cross-shaft.
If the B pedal is now pressed, the extra strain on the A pedal cross-shaft is released, and any slight flex in that shaft produced by raising the 6th is now removed, so the shaft moves forward a tad.
When the B pedal is released, for some reason it does not re-flex the A pedal cross-shaft, and the string remains sharp.
Best solution is to use a wound 6th string. |
|
|
|
Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2017 4:02 pm
|
|
My MSAs were new with compensators set up at the factory as was my Carter.
Factory set up comps. are working very good for me.
The PP did not have them... Everyone is different.
I play with minimal rolling vibrato and like the A+F Position.
I use the Peterson 0E9 on the tuner.
^_^ |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 10 Mar 2017 2:07 am
|
|
| What do they look like and can I put them on my MSA legend uni |
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 10 Mar 2017 2:11 am
|
|
John - you just need some additional pullers, rods and nylon tuners.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
|
|
|
John Roche
From:
England
|
Posted 10 Mar 2017 2:20 am
|
|
| Thanks Ken, I have three cent drop on my guitar so not that much of a problem.. |
|
|
|
