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Topic: Tricone -- gaskets? |
Former Member
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Posted 15 Feb 2017 6:00 pm |
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I was talking to a known reso repair expert a while back.
He told me a bone nut and GASKETS would improve the quality of tone FORTY PERCENT!!
Never heard of gaskets for the cones before, and didn't know what they might be made of.
until this sale on the bay that mentions "original paper gaskets" hide glued to the soundwell...
Anyone ever A/B test this theory?
I've never taken apart my NRP hollowneck, but there was no mention of paper in there.
40% is a big number!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-German-Silver-National-Tricone-Hollowneck-AMAZING-/192099483511 |
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Nathan Laudenbach
From:
Montana
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Posted 15 Feb 2017 6:40 pm
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| I haven't heard of "gaskets" in a tricone before. However the guitar on Ebay is from 1929, and made by National. National Reso Phonic is a different company. While they do a very good job of producing authentic style National guitars, they are the modern day version. National was the original and I think it is important to differentiate between the two. |
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Former Member
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Posted 15 Feb 2017 7:31 pm
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I'm pretty sure we're all aware that NRP is not the original National Co.
I didn't make clear that the suggestion from the reso guy was for my NRP squareneck tricone.
And I had not ever heard of gaskets in either.
So, I'm looking for any info..
Maybe today's tolerances negate the need for them? |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 15 Feb 2017 9:00 pm
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I've personally never heard of such a thing.
Beard Guitars does tricone restorations, vintage and modern. They are in your area (DC)? I'd give them a call.
h
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L |
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Todd Clinesmith
From:
Lone Rock Free State Oregon
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Posted 15 Feb 2017 9:51 pm
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I sent in a tri-cone to a great National set up guy about 25 years ago. I know he put a gasket in the vintage tri-cone I had. The guitar sounded excellent when I got it back.
I wish I could remember the guys name, but I cannot. This was before the new National tri-cone guitars were being built.
_________________
face book page:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Clinesmith-Instruments/1457245817911268?ref=bookmarks |
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Ian McWee
From:
Worcestershire, UK
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 2:50 am
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Pretty much all of original National single-cone guitars had felt gaskets between the cones and soundwells ~ the same fabric found on pool tables.
Tricones apparently did have paper gaskets between the cones and soundwells, but most repairers specialising in resonators I know who work on original tricones confirm they've either been taken out or disintegrated over time. |
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Former Member
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 4:23 am
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Interesting..
Ian, thanks for throwing in, I know you've had dealings with the most knowledgeable folks in the arena. I'm sure this subject doesn't come up often.
Howard, appreciate that. I did notice that Beard was over here, I'm sure going to stop by at some point. it was just a conversation that started with changing tuners to Waverlys and then he told me about these other improvements.
Todd, if the guy was down in Grover Beach, SLO area, then were probably talking about him, ( i just don't want to mention his name without calling first.) --He did work at NRP for some time, and now does repairs on his own. I understood that he puts gaskets on all tricones for tone quality, plus the bone nut. again, 40% would be a huge improvement on an already great sounding instrument, wouldn't it ?!? |
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Former Member
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Ian McWee
From:
Worcestershire, UK
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 5:31 am
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Hi Ron! Marc's the guy who knows these things ~ without doubt THE #1 vintage National repairer over there in the U.S. ~ we have Mike Lewis over here - you have Marc Schoenberger 
Best regards,
Ian. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 7:42 am
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| Wouldn't any type of nut only affect the tone color of the open strings, since the bar is the "nut" any time you use it? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 7:50 am
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One of mine had a very thin type of cardboard and I was able to replace some of it with something similar in thickness to card stock.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Todd Clinesmith
From:
Lone Rock Free State Oregon
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 8:10 am
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I have one of the early wooden soundwell tricones, and it sounds very different from the later factory made metal well tricones. Maybe a little sweeter sounding. I wonder if the gaskets were used trying to get closer to the wood well sound of the earlier instruments??
Dave |
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Former Member
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 8:41 am
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The mysteries of the Tricone.....
I've had this beauty for 4 years and now just realizing how amazing the whole contraption is. I sit and stare at it.
Does the nut material matter? Bridge insert, capped or plain maple? Questions..
Dave, are you saying that you have a wooden soundwell in a metal body? Were all early tricones that way? News..
When could've the change been made..
Was it made for a particular tuning..
the whole design blows my mind. I'm amazed that John just thought up running strings over a simple mechanical speaker deal. The art deco yet timeless beauty of the guitar. And the somewhat other-worldly singing tone.
Magic. |
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David M Brown
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 9:27 am
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| Ron Ellison wrote: |
The mysteries of the Tricone.....
Was it made for a particular tuning..
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Not exactly, but the A low bass was the "standard" tuning when the Tricone was invented.
E major, E7 and C#m were also used too, if I recall. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 10:04 am
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| Ron Ellison wrote: |
Dave, are you saying that you have a wooden soundwell in a metal body? Were all early tricones that way? News..
When could've the change been made.. |
I'm no National expert, but from what I understand the earliest ones were made by hand and had flat backs, woven and soldered strips in the sound holes and wooden soundwells. The sides of the soundwell were still metal--only the flat portion that the cones sit on was wood. These were made in 1927--I think they had the presses going for making the production tricones later that year. I think the metal soundwell, arched back and sound holes were in their standardized form by the early 200 serial numbers.
Dave |
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Loren Tilley
From:
Maui, Hawaii
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Posted 16 Feb 2017 7:42 pm
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| I have bits of the disintegrating original paper gasket floating around inside my Tricone. When I talked to people the consensus was that tricone usually sounded better without the gasket. I also learned that you can just use gasket paper from an auto parts stor to make our own replacement for cheap and as good as original. At any rate, I like how my guitar sounds, so I haven't done anything other than occasion shake out the bits of old paper gasket from time to time. I guess eventually there will be none. |
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Former Member
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Posted 17 Feb 2017 2:11 am
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I spoke with Mark yesterday. He is more than willing to share his knowledge and enthusiasm. What you say Dave is correct, the first 200 tricones had the wood in the soundwell. I'd love to hear it one day!
He told me about the paper gaskets--
The way he described it was that there is a inner and outer rim of the cone. He explained the physics of the way the whole bottom of the cone works, but I can't really paraphrase it other than the gasket makes the whole cone operate more efficient. I asked if the tone was better than just sitting on the metal rim, and he repeated that it just makes the cone operate more efficiently.
These guys the Dopyeras, were cabinet makers. They started to build banjos, and from that extrapolated to the tricone concept. They were smart dudes, and had a real understanding of the laws of physics and such.
The gasket wasn't put in there for no reason.
Mark puts gaskets in all his tricone restorations and repairs. He's worked on 1000's of resonators over 30 something years and gained an education in physics and geometry thru the tricone.
he gets guitars where the owner will tell him it has always sounded great, then after the restoration, are impressed with the improved quality of the sound.
I asked if I could just buy the gaskets and put them in, and he said yes, but there are a lot of other things to look at and possibly adjust to get it to optimum setup. |
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David Knutson
From:
Cowichan Valley, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 10:20 am
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This is really interesting, Ron. Did Mark mention anything about where to find proper gaskets? When I first got my '28 Style One many years ago, first thing I had to do was clean it up inside and outside. As I recall there were fragments of some kind of paper in there which I now suspect were gasket bits. The original cones were in rough shape, so I replaced them, but now I'd like to see what difference there might be with gaskets added back.
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David K |
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Former Member
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 11:52 am
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Yeah me too!
Mark makes them and sells 'em on his website. If you give him a ring, I'm sure he'll tell you the whole deal. |
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Sebastian Müller
From:
Berlin / Germany
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 12:16 pm
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I bought a Tricone Style 1 from 1931 a couple of years ago. It also contained gaskets, the cones that came with the guitar sounded pretty bad so I replaced them with NRP ones. I was in contact with Gottfried Gfrerer from Austria who has a very good reputation when it comes the Resophonic guitars. He said that the gaskets have been used the even out unevenness in the soundwell to prevent the cones from buzzing. He recommended to make my own rings cutting it out of cardboard or thick paper. So if NRP does very even soundboards they might not need to install gaskets.
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https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
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Former Member
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 2:27 pm
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You know, after talking to Mark and asking the same sort of questions, I think the gaskets bring something to the table.
One might assume the reasoning for it, but I'll never know until I hear my tricone before and after.
NRP does not use gaskets. I know Mark is trusted by tricone enthusiasts the world over, in fact he is trusted with Colin McCubbin's collection. He does put gaskets in NRP guitars. -and recommends getting a bone nut.
I'll post his website again,
http://www.nationalguitarrepair.com/index.shtml
He uses the gaskets on perfectly setup tricones.
This discussion has added to my curiosity. --I mean, a FORTY PERCENT improvement in tone must be in the ears of the beholder, but I gotta try! --And my squareneck sounds excellent w/o them.
I speculated that not having cone to soundwell contact would lessen a metallic tone, he repeated that they make the cone more efficient. Hopefully others out there will test this out, and post their findings. |
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 4:52 pm gaskets
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| Years ago, I had a vintage single cone resonator that had some sort of felt-like material on the shelf the cone rested on. I soaked it with a solvent, then scraped it off, and the tone of my guitar immediately improved 57.5 percent. |
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Former Member
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Posted 19 Feb 2017 4:30 am
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You mock me! 
Few years ago I had a M32 fiddle edge that came with a spider cone. The soundwell had this little step inside where you can remove the inverted cone and use a biscuit cone that would sit on this step, thereby having the versatility to change cones. Also the green felt. Don't know if any builders do this now.. |
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Lee Cecil
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Feb 2017 5:04 am
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Not mocking you at all, Ron. I was however, taking a shot at the idea of someone telling you or anybody they can quantify a specific percentage improvement in something as nebulous and subjective as "tone." Your guitar may sound better with gaskets, and it may not, but someone predicting a 40% improvement struck me as silly.
However, your last comment is interesting. I also had a fiddle edge dobro that had a strange set up, but not exactly what you describe. Mine had a brass ring, or a gasket, if you will, that the cone sat on, and I ended up taking it out. It wasn't glued in or otherwise attached, it just sat on the shelf and raised the cone maybe 1/8th of an inch. The metal that formed the ring was not tubular, it was squared off, so it laid flat on the shelf. My guitar also had the remnants of some green felt, but I wasn't thinking of that as a gasket at the time. Again, I cleaned that off, and I thought the cone seated better and sounded better afterwards. Good luck with the paper gaskets if you decide to try them. |
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