copedent question

Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

Ordered my Justice Pro-Lite 3/5 last week and have a copedent question. I've asked for a standard Emmons copedent with the exception of the LVL. I asked for the E's to be raised to F# as opposed to lowering the B's to Bb. Would appreciate comments, opinions, pluses and minuses on this minor change bearing in mind that I'm brand new at PSG but a pretty good musician on banjo, dobro and guitar plus I have a good handle on theory, I teach guitar through Guitars For Vets which is a music therapy program for combat vets with issues, probably the most rewarding thing I've ever undertaking, I enjoy working with my fellow vets.

BTW, Fred Justice is a great guy to deal with, answered all my questions, gave me good advice about what to get etc.. More to come when I get a chance to take this dive into the deep end of the pool.
Thanks in advance,
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Just out of curiosity, since you're brand-new at pedal steel, why did you ask for something different in the setup? I ask this only because, normally, the "standard" setups are very well thought out, as well as being popular (generally accepted).

Carl Kilmer · From: East Central, Illinois

I would keep the raise E's on the LKL and lowers on the LKR.
You'll use them all the time with the A & B pedals and will
be more comfortable. Never heard of raising E to F# on LVL.
Remember, you use the A pedal with the LKL & B with the LKR.
I think it would be awkward to use the LVL with the A pedal. Whoa!

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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

The Bb, I think is more common. Many also swear by the E to F# change. I used it for probably 20 years when I first started. While it's a cool change, I found better uses for that knee lever and removed it. I had the Bb change too when I bought my Carter in 1999, and didn't use it enough to justify tying up a knee lever.
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Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

A more complete answer to why I chose this copedent, here's what my buddy and SGF member (Steve Lipsey) suggested.

"I have one...and use it a lot. But it isn't "necessary".

Many use it as a B->Bb, give you some more jazz options.

Others, and I, I use it like a C-pedal (which I also have) as E-F#

so instead of bouncing form A+B to B+C, a common move that is really hard to do smoothly, I just do A+B and then hold this down while lifting my knee to A+B+vertical. Give a nice smooth transition, can use for melody fills...a lot of alt-country changes fall into that move..."
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Banjo, Dobro, Guild D-40, Telecaster, Justice Pro Lite 3x5, BOSS Katana 100, Peavey Nashville 112 in a Tommy Huff cabinet, Spark, FreeLoader, Baby Bloomer, Peterson StroboPlus HD, Stage One VP.
"Use the talents you possess; the woods would be very silent indeed if no birds sang but the best"

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Hopefully Steve will teach you to use it once you wrap your head around this crazy thing.
If you'd sought out advice before you ordered it, I'd have argued against that change.
BUT I firmly believe that a new steel player with a mostly standard copedent should not change the copedent for a good year, until s/he understands how they'll use what they're adding, as well as realizing what they're giving up

Welcome to the steel guitar. I've met Fred a few times, great guy, with a good guitar.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

Dear Bruce - I really believe you would regret putting the E to F# raise on the vertical. The E raises and the E lowers are basic changes and integral to the standard E9th approach. You need them constantly, at any moment, in any position. That vertical on the other hand is totally optional. If you're just starting out you could skip having the vertical all together, and you wouldn't even miss it for at least two years. For the vertical, you have several choices, for example B to Bflat, or raising the first two strings. But don't put the F# raise on the vertical. I am going to guess that less than 1% of 1% of guitars are set up that way. Raising the Es is comfortable and easy with the regular LKL, its natural and the leg hardly moves from its base position; with a vertical there's way too much effort and movement involved. Bad idea from my way of thinking.

PS - Welcome to the "deep end of the pool", lots of ex dobro players here, most love it.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I agree with the others. Don't try to "reinvent the wheel" at least not at the beginning. After you have acquired the basic skills you can then consider if you want to change anything.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The B-A# is likely to be more useful
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Pat Chong · From: New Mexico, USA

Hello Bruce,
Welcome to the forum. As far as the E to F# raise on the vertical, I have tried that, too. It IS a smooth change from IV to IIm (or I to VIm) or back, and is handy for a few licks, too.

It appears that some may have misunderstood the raise you propose. I don't think you are replacing the LKL raise (E to F), but are adding this (to F#) instead of B to Bb on your vertical.

As mentioned, I tried that, but moved raising both Es to a pedal. I have to double-foot this, though. With your understanding of music, I would be among those who say "GO!" as far as adding that change. I use it often.

..............Pat

Gary Dillard · From: Tuscaloosa, AL

Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

Thanks all for your comments, suggestions and encouragement. I guess I was getting ahead of myself with my minor deviation from a standard Emmons copedent. I've adjusted my order to reflect the B-Bb on the LVL. I can always change it down the road.

Thanks again.
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Banjo, Dobro, Guild D-40, Telecaster, Justice Pro Lite 3x5, BOSS Katana 100, Peavey Nashville 112 in a Tommy Huff cabinet, Spark, FreeLoader, Baby Bloomer, Peterson StroboPlus HD, Stage One VP.
"Use the talents you possess; the woods would be very silent indeed if no birds sang but the best"

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Since you can change it later I agree you should start out with the B to Bb change.

If your guitar has adjustable split tuning, this will open up a whole range of 9th and diminished chords you can play by pressing your B to C# pedal and B to Bb knee lever at the same time. I've got lots of tab and sound files showing how useful this is and how smoothly this works compared to just pressing the B to C# pedal half way.

Bruce Bjork · From: Southern Coast of Maine

Andy DePaule · From: Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon

Hi Bruce,
Good luck on your journey here.
I've used my RKR lever to raise my E to F# since 1978 and like it there for all the same reasons other people here stated. When I have a vertical I like that for the B to Bb change.

One of the first people who responded said you should keep the E to Eb and the E to F changes on the left knee levers. I think all the reasons for that make very good sense.
I lower the E's on my RKL but thats just an old habit from the time when so many steels only had one or two knee levers and they were on the right.
If I were starting out today I'd have all those on the left leg because they work so well there with the A&B pedals. That is what is referred to as the Emmons setup.

Must admit that I've never thought to put the E to F# on the LKV, but my first thought after you said that was it will need a lot more travel than a 1/2 tone change.

I'm having a new guitar built by Mullen and on that I will have the E to F# both on my RKR as well as on the C pedal. That is because they are used in different ways and I want to play around with it on a floor pedal. If I don't like it there I can always do something else on that pedal.

I came very close to a Justice but settled on the Mullen. Those that Fred Justice builds are very nice so your off to a great start.
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Jim Reynolds · From: Franklin, Pa 16323

Bruce, as a Vietnam vet, I would like to go back to what you said at start. You are working with VETs, and giving them a motivation. I playa half A----, steel. I would keep it simple for now, and present to the VETS, the basics. Set it up to the basic lessons found all over. Teach them with the basics, then if they want to go more they can. You have done your job, to present it to them. As the old saying goes. KISS (Keep it simple stupid) Not you, just an old saying. Thanks for your working with the VETS, they are so soon forgotten, and without them, there would be nothing.
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Rich Peterson · From: Moorhead, MN

You could have Fred install both changes, and just tune out either one until you decide which you want to keep.

Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

What do you guys use that vertical B lower for? Is it just to get a minor chord with the A+B?

Last steel I had I took one of the C6 pedals that I never used and turned it into an E to F# raise, I found that really useful, I don't think it would work all that well on a vertical, though.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I played E9th for many years with E to F# on the vertical lever. Now that I've switched to D6th, I have D to E on the vertical. It's not very ergonomic, but it's part of my pedal steel DNA. I use it constantly.

Since I only use my E9th for teaching, I have the more standard B to A# on LKV. It's a very useful change, and it's not such a long pull.
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