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Topic: Totally Baffled |
Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 3:28 pm |
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Been working in electronics since I was a Navy electronic tech at the ripe onl age of 18 and it seems the more I read on here the more I'm confused. Have never dealt with audio amps until I started about 6 years ago on the steel.
I see high $ amps at 40 watt, 85 watt, 90 watt and 300 watt and can never get from reading and talking to those who may or may not know,
HOW DO YOU DECIDE ON WHAT WATTAGE TO USE???????
Yeah I know about all the comments ref no one amp fits all and I can understand that. Some say 40 watts is all they need to gig and others will tell you they need 300 watts.
I about to pull the trigger on a tube amp because I've had several of the solid state variety but I'm having trouble on how much is enough.
I also know tube wattage is not the same as SS wattage.
Guess I'm looking for a "Rule of Thumb" on how to choose and pick. Yeah I know you need to hear each one and play through one but we all know that ain't going to happen in the real world.
Any constructive thoughts would be appreciated.
And yeah I've thought of just getting one trying it out, and if I don't like it sell it and buy the next one  |
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Rick Contino
From:
Brattleboro, Vermont
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 4:29 pm
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I'm no expert, but my 50 watt tube amp is a tad louder than my 200 watt solid state amp. I would recommend these wattages if you play loud clubs or outdoor events. I can't imagine ever needing more power. If you do, your amp should be miced and further amplified through the PA.
_________________
Shobud "The Professional" D-10, Stage One S-10, National "New Yorker," NV400 |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 6:10 pm
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Because of the ways that solid state handles breakup differently from tubes, and the way different tubes react when they get pushed hard, it's terribly confusing.
Pedal steel adds difficulty because we expect microtones (all the little intervals between, for instance a major third and a perfect fourth) to stay clean, and they both sound ultracrappy when they break up, and break up easier than the more consonant intervals from the other instruments.
Because we usually want pedal steel to sound pretty clean, the answer to "how much power?" is usually "how much can you afford?"
An 85W Twin will sound almost as loud as the 250W Peaveys, but they'll sound better.
If you're going to gig, I'd recommend in the 85-135 range for tubes, and 250-400 for Solid State.
I'd rather have more headroom than I need than need more than I have.
PS: if you want to try out a (kinda heavy but great) 135W Ultralinear Twin, I can bring it to you at the weigh station Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 12 Feb 2017 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 12 Feb 2017 6:20 pm Re: Totally Baffled
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| Clark Doughty wrote: |
| HOW DO YOU DECIDE ON WHAT WATTAGE TO USE??????? |
Simple ... as long as the speaker(s) can handle the peak wattage, there's no such thing as having too much power at hand. After all; you only use what you need at any given time / venue, and the rest is in reserve.
| Clark Doughty wrote: |
| I also know tube wattage is not the same as SS wattage. |
Well ... Watt = Watt no matter what, but tubes compress peaks when driven at/near their peak capacity, so the average output of tube amps will sound at least twice as loud as that of an equally powerful SS amp.
Some SS amps, like the NV112 and others, have a peak-limiter built into the power stage that make them act a bit like, but not sound quite like, a tube amp when driven hard. |
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Michael Dulin
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 4:32 pm what amp
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I know this is confusing, so I'll put my confusing 2 cents worth in. I use different amps for diff' situations. Practice, Fender 25R with a speaker upgrade. With and without headphones and it is capable of playing a CD player with it both ways. It is 25 watts power, more than enough for my practice room and it only pulls 75 watts out of the wall(like a 75w lite bulb). I can spend hours practicing without raising the electric bill so much...might be important to a new player spending much time in the woodshed. I use both tube amps and SS amps to play out...they pull much more power out of the wall. SS amps...Peavey Bandit, 65 watts/200w out of the wall...Peavey Nv112, 85 watts, Evans FET 500, 200 watts, pulls a lot of power. Tube amps, Fender Princeton 15 watts tube, Fender Deluxe Reverb 22 watts tube. All of these amps work very well under most conditions on their own. If they're not enough I can mike them. There's no set amp, many will work fine...high dollar, low dollar, new/used the sky's the limit. Just consider what you're going to be doing with it most and start there.MD
Last edited by Michael Dulin on 14 Feb 2017 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 7:30 pm
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Assuming we're talking about an open back speaker cabinet, one good tip is that if you want lots of bass (low end), you'll need lots more power. But if you tonal preference is thinner (more towards high twang) you can get by with far less watts. To be sure, there's a lot more involved, but we really need to know what you're tone preference is and what instrument you'll be using to make a good recommendation.  |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 13 Feb 2017 10:13 pm Amp Power
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I'm going to throw my 2 cents in . I have found over the years that Solid State amps are cleaner . You want to get as much power as you are willing to haul around especially if you're playing any C6 . I always heard that it takes twice the power to reproduce low frequencies without distortion . Which makes sense when you think about the size difference in the wave forms . The illusion that a lower power tube amp is louder has something to do with the compression of the tubes but when you measure distortion and wattage you find out the truth . The human ear likes a little harmonic distortion and sometimes perceives it as loudness . Some of the wattage ratings are not always the honest truth as well so you can't really go by that . Some of the cleanest loudest amps I've ever played on were the component setups. Separate pre-amp , power amp , speaker cabs with a ton of power .
_________________
A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II |
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Mark Fowler
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 7:23 am
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For PSG a 100w tube amp and 200-300w solid state amp to keep clean tones/high headroom.
Next choose your speaker wisely, one that has the power rating to match the amp. Then how well you like what your hearing from said speaker. |
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Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
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Posted 14 Feb 2017 10:27 am totally Baffled
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| As usual you guys are spot on when it comes to valuable insight and information. Thanks much for your time and talent in explaining what can be very confusing. It's getting clearer and I'm getting educated by the pros. Thanks again for your help......clark |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2017 2:35 pm
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| Quote: |
| HOW DO YOU DECIDE ON WHAT WATTAGE TO USE??????? |
You don't.
Power is the single most misinterpreted "specification" in the amp world. It is relatively meaningless when it comes to the human ear's perception of volume.
In the tube world there are popular 15 watt amps louder than some 50 watt amps. And many 100-200 watt solid state amps are not as loud as some 50 watt tube amps.
"Actual volume" factors (in measured SPL) are speaker sensitivity and frequency response.
"Perceived Volume" depends on the above [plus or minus] physical position of the listener, air movement (i.e. number of speaker square inches), frequency response/waveform and signal type (clean is perceived differently from varying levels of distortion). Solid-state and modeling amps produce a different signal type than that of tube amps and the perceived volume can be quite different.
It's all extremely complicated and the best judge is experience - the worst is gong by manufacturer's specifications and/or marketing information!
There is no way for the average player who doesn't understand audio reproduction to make an amp-buying decision except one based on reviews and reports of what others use.
To *double* the volume (everything else being equal) takes a TENFOLD increase in power.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Brian Evans
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2017 11:31 am
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My take on power is that if you are using an all tube amp, adjusting the output power level can change the nature of the tone of the amp, both in terms of clean headroom, dynamic compression and in terms of a dirty sound. As a rule of thumb, more power means greater clean volume, greater clean dynamic range, and less power means you can get greater compression, and introduce some power amp distortion. You can't really emulate a true low power amp with a switchable tube power amp, since there is a distinct sound to an over-driven output transformer that you won't get pushing 10 watts through a 100 watt transformer. With any tube amp you always have the option of overdriving the pre-amp stages to get a level of distortion at almost any volume level, if that is your thing.
Those new class D extremely high wattage, and oh-so-small solid state power amps make how much power you need almost a moot point. You can get 100 true rms watts in a foot pedal now, or 1,000 watts in a book sized unit. They can be crystal clean high fidelity for a sound reinforcement/PA deal, or they can have any kind of emulation, digital modeling or tiny little tube pre-amps to get any kind of tone quality you want, and if you happen to think you need or want 1,000 watts, well now you can pick up it with one hand.
Volume has very little to do with amp power, and a lot more to do with speaker efficiency, until you start to get stupid big with power. |
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