Shipping Damages. Who makes claim with shipping company?

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

I was always under the assumption the seller of an instrument damaged during shipping pursued the claim with the shipping company. Is this correct?

The reason I ask is that I have seen this on one of the pedalsteel sites: "We are NOT responsible for shipping damages" Thanks, Stevet

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The shipper files the claim and the shipping company will do everything in their power to deny the claim.
I had to take FedEx to court and the judge decided in my favor. I had the guitar insured and paid extra for the insurance but FedEx said that that was just declared value. The judge said: "I'll decide that" and she did! Whoa!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

If the seller/shipper makes that claim, they still have an obligation to prepare it properly for shipment. If it gets damaged in shipping and was improperly secured, their disclaimer won't hold up, because negligence trumps their claim.

The person paying the carrier is the party who gets to file the claim.

If I were to buy from a seller with such a policy, I'd cover myself in the following:get a FedEx account if you don't already have one. Insist on having the shipment charged to your account. Remind him that it has about a fifty percent chance of dropping two feet to concrete (it does, we've been through that before), and he needs to pack accordingly. Insist on pictures of the packing process. Then cross your fingers.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

In my limited experience Erv, is correct. The bottom line. The INS is only as good as the shipper. If you feel the shipper can't afford to cover possible damages or won't. Then you can roll the dice and pray for no damage. Or walk away.

Also, if there is damage. And you spend the 3 months of taking pictures, getting estimates and calling every few days and getting the run around. Then if they do finally pay up. The check goes to the shipper not you. And you're at his or her mercy to forward you the damage fees. And as I understand it. There is no law that states the seller has to reimburse you for damages. You could take them to court. But most know that due to time involved on your side. Attorney fee's etc. That you want follow through.

b.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Bobby, the check goes to the person who paid the carrier.
It IS possible for the buyer to do that. You may have to insist in it, but UPS, FedEx and USPS all have provisions for consignee payment.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

Lane, thanks for that tide bit. Had heard it before. Even ask to have it done that way. But was always told by an employee that that's not the way it's done. But as you know. Many employees don't really know their job. Maybe this only applies to those who have an account with the shipping Co.??

Edit

It's been years. But seems I was told the only way that could happen is if the buyer actually paid for the shipping with his or her check, credit card, etc. Bottom line. Who ever paid the shipper collects should damage occur.

b.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Right. You have to have an account with the carrier. But they're free to open.

The seller may well counter that you'll pay more because of their volume discount. Which is true.
But if you explain that you want it that way so that you can pursue any potential damage claims, they'll probably go along with it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

Lane, is there a required amount of shipping to sign up? If you don,t mind please pm me the process of how to sign up. I am tired of getting ripped off by ups, and I have to drive over 50 miles each way to ship by fed ex....thanks jack

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'll try to find out Monday. I don't think there's a minimum, and I think you can do it online. I'll make inquiries.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

Thanks lane, I really appreciate it....jack

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

how would seller be responsible for shipping damages? or why? when I sell guitar I add $150 on the price for shipping and insurance, and I take guitar to UPS shipping center, and have them pack it, that way they are responsible for any damage... seller has no control over package, once the shipper takes over the package, so how could he be responsible? I prefer that buyer comes and picks up guitar in person, driving boxes around to shipping locations, filling out paperwork etc...is not something I enjoy doing anyway... but if guitar is damaged, shipper will take care of that, one of my guitars got damaged one time, and UPS store where I shipped guitar from, was consider a "shipper" by UPS, not me, I had to call UPS store, and deal with them because UPS didn't want to have anything to do with me...as by UPS I was not considered a "shipper" ... however, they eventually paid for damages in full, and everything worked out fine ...
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www.steelguitarsonline.com

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The seller should be responsible for the simple fact that, unless the buyer pays the carrier (a rare occurrence), the carrier is responsible to the seller, not the buyer. Therefore, a seller unwilling to address shipping damages leaves the buyer no recourse whatsoever.
As a buyer, I don't consider the transaction complete until I have the item in my possession.
Do you REALLY expect a buyer to be happy with a broken guitar?

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I sorta agree with Damir. The shipped item is no longer in possession of the shipper and is in possession of the buyer. Look at all the trouble it would be to ship it back to the seller and then the seller deal with the damage. There is also the money has to be sent back.I tend to think it is the buyers responsibility. Right, nobody wants a broken guitar or whatever but why is the seller all the sudden responsible when he don't even have the item anymore but has the money.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Henry, you (and Damir) overlook one important, nearly crucial, fact: 95% of the time, THE CARRIER IS THE SHIPPER'S AGENT.
We are all responsible for those acting at our direction.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Lane said this and it is my take as well:

"The seller should be responsible for the simple fact that, unless the buyer pays the carrier (a rare occurrence), the carrier is responsible to the seller, not the buyer. Therefore, a seller unwilling to address shipping damages leaves the buyer no recourse whatsoever.
As a buyer, I don't consider the transaction complete until I have the item in my possession.
Do you REALLY expect a buyer to be happy with a broken guitar?"

Again, if the shipper paid the carrier and the guitar is damaged, I see it as the shipper's responsibility to deal with the carrier.. Why would a carrier pay anyone who did not ship the steel?

Damir, if the guitar needs to be repaired by the buyer, who will,pay for that? Initially, the buyer would. With the proper. documentation including photos, sent too the seller, it would be up to the seller to forward these to the carrier and wait for the money. Then the seller could reimburse the seller.

I know this is an involved process. Maybe someone can streamline this.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Just to add to the last few comments and sort of reiterate/consolidate many of the things Lane has been saying here for years - one of the most important ingredients in all of this, perhaps the most important, is how well the seller packs the item before shipment. Not just the outer packaging, but all the expected stuff inside the case -- blocks to support the partitions, extra padding, etc.

From this perspective, shipping is the seller's responsibility, regardless of who pays the carrier. If it's not packed properly, as Lane has reminded us countless times here on the forum, the odds for it being damage in shipment go up significantly. The buyer has absolutely no control over this.

If the item is packed to survive a drop without damage inside and out, chance are much better that no claim will ever need to be filed. If it is packed properly, or packed by an agent of the carrier (such as a UPS store), then the likelihood of a denied claim in the event of damage is greatly reduced too.

It's also worth repeating (as it has been discussed at length here before) the declared value on shipment through UPS, FedEx, etc. is not "insurance". It is used to establish a limit if a claim for damage is filed, but the seller still needs to demonstrate that the carrier is responsible for the damage before any claim will be paid. As Erv said, they are unlikely to pay anything without a little (or perhaps a lot of) effort on your part.

Neither the buyer or seller has any control over what happens during transit, but only the seller has any control over how well suited the package is for "survival" in the shipping world. The buyer at the other end of the transaction really has no control over anything except the money he is sending for the item, he must trust the seller to take all necessary measures to minimize the potential for damage, to document the condition of the item and the sufficiency of the packaging with pictures, to make certain the packaged item meets the necessary criteria for shipping so that a claim will not be denied if damage does occur, and to resolve the claim with the carrier if it does.

Edited to change "shipper" to "carrier" so nobody get confused. Like me

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I can understand the facts of shipper being responsible but what will the buyer do incase of damage, ship it back to original shipper, then the shipper send back the money paid for item? I have never had any damage to a guitar but I did have damage about 12 years ago to a 16 track recorder I bought, it was totally destroyed but I filed the claim and took about 6 months to get my money but I did have to send it back to original shipper so they may have been the ones to settle the claim. You all may be right but just seemed off to me having to do again the exchanging of product and money back and forth.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

What's the alternative? Just shrug and keep the smashed guitar you just paid $4k for? What if it was poorly packed? Should the buyer take responsibility for sorting it out with the carrier?

Someone has to deal with it when something goes wrong. I will not be easily convinced that it should ever be anyone but the seller who shipped it. That doesn't necessarily mean shipping it back, but IMO the seller should be responsible for doing whatever is necessary to make it right. If, as Steve was asking about in his OP, the seller disclaims this responsibility up front, caveat emptor. I would never buy anything as expensive and fragile as a psg from someone with those terms.

Edited to change "shipper" to "carrier"

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The Shipper is usually the seller.
Or did you mean the carrier?
Also, Ian, the UPS store (or the FedEx equivalent, the FedEx Office store) are NOT to be trusted. They're a separate company from the apparent carrier, and typically franchisees. In many cases, their approach to preparation for shipment involves peanuts and little else.
AND if, as expected, peanuts are insufficient to prevent damage from dropping, the carrier will deny the claim. Leaving the shipper to fight with the franchisee.
Your best bet is to follow the gregcutshaw.com packing process, taking pictures at each step. This will virtually guarantee the safe arrival, and the pictures should make short work of any denial by the carrier.

I'll repeat the important thing to remember:
Regardless of choice of carrier, your item stands around a 56% chance of dropping two feet to concrete whilst traveling at around ten mph. Secure the item accordingly.
If you're buying something, make sure the seller knows that risk.
If the seller insists they're not responsible for damages in shipping, only pay via PayPal, Visa, Mastercard or Amex: these all have good dispute procedures (Amex and PayPal a bit better than the other two)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Sorry, wrong lingo. 'Shipper' was meant to refer to the carrier - seller sells, buyer buys, shipper (carrier) ships.

I wasn't trying to infer anything as to the qualifications of the intermediary franchises like the UPS store to pack something properly/adequately. I've never used them, though I know others here have reported using them with success. The UPS Store does however guarantee their packaging against shipping damage (even if it was just peanuts) up to the declared value plus shipping and packing costs, provided they pack and you pay their slightly higher rates to ship. If you ship direct with UPS/FedEx/DHL et al the burden of proof that the packing was adequate falls on you, regardless of how truly adequate it was. Again, not recommending or advocating anything, just observing.

Btw, where does the "56% chance of dropping two feet to concrete whilst traveling at around ten mph" statistic comes from? It's very specific. Is that documented somewhere or just something anecdotal? It infers that more than half of all packages shipped get dropped in this way. I find it hard to believe that these giant companies whose sole job it is to handle and move packages are that bad and inefficient at it.

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

Whomever paid the shipper files the claim. We ship material every day. If the seller paid the freight (uses his own carrier) he is responsible. Whe we arrange shipping and add the the invoice it is our responsibility.
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The figure was from observation by me of many (on the order of a couple hundred or more) cart trips, counting the number of pieces on the carts and how many dropped.
On the order of 7 percent dropped per trip.
Each package that rides a cart can expect 8 trips.
For the extrapolation I turned to statisticians (and friends who'd studied statistics and probability) who informed me that it is reasonable to multiply the likelihood per trip by the number of trips.
I undertook this informal census to try to figure out what was happening when there was a spate of broken steels a couple years ago. I spent about six weeks watching the carts whilst waiting for them to load my trailers.

Other friends of mine who work for the package handling arms of all three of the major players agree that 7 percent is probably a fair assessment of the risks of riding the carts (the belts are safer, but amplifiers and pedal steels are more likely to ride the carts)

For items too heavy, bulky or odd-shaped to ride the belts ride on carts from dock to sorting area and to the next dock. These carts have no sides (just a lip about 1.5" high at the most), no springs or shocks, and solid rubber tires about 0.75" thick. Straight Victorian Era stuff, although they're pulled by an electric cart.

Hardly anything on the belts gets dropped. But if it can't ride the belt, it rides the cart. They're experimenting with improvements to the carts, but so far nothing system-wide.

PS: the vast majority of stuff on the carts is lightweight stuff unlikely to be damaged by the fall. I was unable to ascertain what percentage of heavy stuff on the carts bounces off. It's probably only a small slice of what's on the carts BUT SHIT FALLS OFF THE CARTS REGULARLY. If you know that's likely, you can plan accordingly. Please do so.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Ah, ok thanks. Statistical probability actually doesn't add up in the way you've proposed though. The statistical probability for a given outcome like this would need to consider the total number of possible outcomes. If the likelihood of a specific individual package being dropped is 7% for each cart trip that's about ~1/15. If there are 8 repetitions of this in a given journey then there are ~15^8 possible outcomes, which is a very big number.

One possible outcome, 1 in 15^8, is that the package gets dropped all 8 times, but the vast majority of possible outcomes would favor not getting dropped at all and, based on your 7% estimate, the actual probability that my guitar or other package will get dropped one or more times in shipment is still relatively low. (I hope!).

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

That doesn't surprise me, in fact I'd tried to suggest it didn't add up like that. But people I trusted said that it did work that way.
I also wasn't able to ascertain how many of the NCs that dropped (the FXG term for the stuff that rides the cart is Non Compatible (as in noncompatible with the belt)) were heavy or just dimensionally NC. I even suspect that the stuff most likely to bounce out will be the lightweight stuff; meaning that certain packages will drop several times and many won't drop at all.
So a more precise way of putting the risk is: your steel or amp will face 8 specific eventsÂ¹, each with a roughly 7% risk of falling two feet to concrete whilst traveling at around ten mph.
Even if it doesn't add up to 56%, it's a known risk. Stuff bounces off the carts, and your stuff will ride the carts. Plan and package accordingly, and you should be fine.

Â¹the 8 events are as follows, if the shipper and consignee have geographical luck, it may get reduced to 6 or 4. 2 is unlikely, as then it'd probably be a local handoff, no freight required:
1) local terminal, from van to the truck dock for the trip to the outbound hub
2) outbound hub, from inbound trailer dock to sorting area
3) outbound hub, from sort to Linehaul trailer
4) destination hub, from Linehaul trailer to sort
5) destination hub, from sort to trailer going to destination local terminal
6) destination local terminal, from trailer to local sort
7) destination local terminal, from sort to van.

Dammit. I know there's 8. I wonder which one I'm missing.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

J R Rose · From: Keota, Oklahoma, USA

OK, Thru the years I have read many discussions on this topic. Why would a Seller/Shipper not package a $2,000.00 to $5,000 Steel Guitar that weights 50lbs. to 100lbs knowing it is going to be thrown around on carrier belts or carts or trucks and not pack it as it should be. My question is if your guitar arrives and you can see damage and you refuse it before you sign for it and say ship it back to sender what HAPPENS? Will the carrier do that? BUT the seller/shipper still has your money!! I have been told by all of the above mentioned carriers that it is the SELLER/SHIPPERS place to file a CLAIM. I can only speak for myself but I would never delay in giving the buyers money back if I had the guitar back in my procession and then proceed to file a claim by taking it to the place I shipped it from. IMO it is much more important to pack guitar inside of case than the wrapping on the outside. I buy things from E-BAY and most everything I get is inside a styrofoam box put inside a cardboard box. This is from company's that do not need the headache of damage. We here on the forum as sellers should do the same. PACK THE GUITAR CORRECTLY. J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose

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