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Topic: Danger, Will Robinson, another eBay scam afoo!!! |
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 11:52 am |
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Thought he was a goner but...
Those of you who remember the infamous "RED PEDAL STEEL 3+4" educational campaign on eBay last autumn will want to know that the builder of that sham guitar is back again, this time with a "Wilcox" guitar for sale. He hid out for quite a while after we outed him the last time, guess he just "couldn't stay away."
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7300634560&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1
His name is Don Secor, and he says in his listing "THEY WERE SELLING FOR $2200.00 WHEN I BOUGHT MINE" but he dosen't say that they were "worth" that much because in fact there isn't $600.00 worth of usable parts in it. Pivot points are gouged out, not drilled; rod pullers are hand-carved (I don't meant that in a good way) out of aluminum stock and drilled willy-nilly; the tuners are mounted backwards (a Wilcox tradition, it seems), etc. The "hard-shell case" probably isn't even glued together - the last one wasn't, anyway, and completely fell apart in shipping - while it was INSIDE a foam-packed box!
If the "RED" one he sold Race Hogan last summer is any indication, the lowers won't even work at all. Note that he covers his own behind quite well by repeatedly stating that "you buy it, you own it" "no refunds" "as is" etc.
I hate be the one to to put up a "negative" post, but this is serious bad news. Some poor neophyte will probably get stuck with this item simply from not knowing any better than that the price looks really good for a D10. With all the money gone they may never get started on the PSG at all after that.
dg[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 14 February 2005 at 12:02 PM.] |
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Richard Nydegger
From:
Monticello, Indiana, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 12:50 pm
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| I just bought it. I'll let you know how it goes. Actually, I bought it for parts, the legs, endplates, necks, changers, etc are worth more than I paid for the guitar. Maybe i've been lucky, but I've dealt with Don a couple times in the past with no problems. |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 1:20 pm
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| It's hard to imagine a D-10 pedal steel that isn't worth $750. Beatup old D-8 non-pedal guitars are selling for that these days. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 2:06 pm
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They're not worth much if they're unplayable.
I wonder how those "ALUMIMUN NECKS" sound? Description also says, "SOME OF THE PARTS ARE NOT AS ACCURATE AS A FACTORY STEEL". I love this one, "IT WON'T COMPARE TO AND EMMOMS". At least he admits that. I wouldn't touch it or any of its' parts.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 14 February 2005 at 02:22 PM.] |
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Jerry Erickson
From:
Atlanta,IL 61723
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 2:22 pm
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| "kepted" !?!?!? |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 14 Feb 2005 2:25 pm
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"KEPTED IN A [SMOKE-FREE!] ENVIROMENT"
HA... I don't whine about misspellings or grammar on the Forum, I make typos too, but Ebay is fair game...
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Mark Herrick
From:
Bakersfield, CA
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 12:04 am
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| Quote: |
| Pivot points are gouged out, not drilled; rod pullers are hand-carved (I don't meant that in a good way) out of aluminum stock and drilled willy-nilly... |
How did you get that much info out of those pictures? They were barely in focus. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 4:22 am
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| Geez,how bad can it be?.. If the changers are ok, I'm sure the bellcranks,stops,lever parts could be upgraded a bit.. I mean how bad can a pull rod be? It doesn't look so horrible to me. bob |
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Ron !
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 5:18 am
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When you buy it for parts it's a normal price.Don't think you are buying something cheap.Wayne Link is almost as cheap when you buy the parts from him.But this one is complete and can (like Bob said) easaly be made playable.It has a triple triple changer and those are very expensive now a days.
Just make some adjustments and you have a playable steel.The only thing that does not look O.K is the pedal-bar.To thin in my eyes.I think it will bend while using the pedals.But i could be wrong here.
Ron
Nikaro SD10 4x6
European Steel Guitar Forum[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 15 February 2005 at 05:19 AM.] |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 9:07 am
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Bobby, I think you are probably right, if you look at it as a non-pedal D-10 and the tuning keys and pickups actually work (they didn't on the RED unit).
Mark, my description is from close-hand inspection of Mr. Wilcox's work, not from the photos on eBay. By all accounts, Chet Wilcox is a decent and kind person but not a professional machinist. He has taken plenty of heat already from folks who weren't happy with his guitars and as a result has ceased building and selling them, I don't wish to add to his distress any further here.
Don Secor just contacted me to protest my harsh handling of him in this post, and to explain how and why he uses more than one eBay handle, the failing health of his father, the difficult straits of his life, etc.
According to Don, the "RED PEDAL STEEL" that he sold Race Hogan last year was fine, he didn't know anyone was unhappy with it, he himself played it lots (although how he tuned it with the colliding keys and got sound out of the grounded-out pickup remains a mystery), he would have given Race his money back if asked (despite his "no returns" policy) and he remains an honest man. No sour grapes here, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt IF Rich Nydegger signs off as a happy camper with this recent purchase.
I feel quite ambivalent about posting this sort of information, on the one hand it is important to give everyone a heads-up when shifty doings appear to be afoot, on the other hand almost EVERYBODY in this old world is doing the best they know how to do and somebody is likely to be offended or hurt. Can anybody suggest other ways to deal with such issues, do I just keep my mouth shut (as has been suggested to me before on numerous other occasions)? Did I do the right thing here? This is a tough one, as I don't want to beat up on anybody who is sincerely TRYING to be honest but I have an inherent dislike for scammers.
Dave[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 15 February 2005 at 10:23 AM.] |
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Richard Nydegger
From:
Monticello, Indiana, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 10:30 am
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| At $750 for a complete D10 I'm allready a happy camper. Do I expect it to stack up to my Carter? NO, but it cost considerably more. After reading this thread, Don contacted me and offered to give my money back. I'm still buying the guitar. I run a guitar repair shop so I've either got a hell of a buy on an instrument or on a lot of what would be very expensive parts. Either way, I'm not complaining. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 11:16 am
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Thanks, Rich, I'm curious to know what it all looks like once it is in your hands. I may have jumped the gun, this is one time I would be delighted to be wrong.
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 12:00 pm
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Richard.
When you receive the steel and evaluate it, will you please post your findings here for a couple of reasons. Chet Wilcox has received a LOT of bad press here on the forum. If his instrument is not up to par then it will either validate that or exonerate his work.
Also there will be more of these floating around being passed off for what ever reason. The members of the forum would be well advised as to what the real truth is as to the quality or lack thereof of these instruments.
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Richard Nydegger
From:
Monticello, Indiana, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2005 12:27 pm
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| Will do. |
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Mark Vinbury
From:
N. Kingstown, Rhode Island, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2005 6:02 am
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| . [This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 16 February 2005 at 03:36 PM.] |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 16 Feb 2005 2:08 pm
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| If this turns out to be a controversial, complex, uresolvable issue, then it's probably Dr. Smith at work. [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 16 February 2005 at 02:08 PM.] |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2005 3:55 pm
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Dave,
I for one appreciate the heads up ....Perhap's a bit on the harsh side, but I appreciate it just the same ... A lot of times you will see praise on the forum, but when someone point's out something that's bad about a product, I see them get chastized by a lot of people for saying anything ... Nobody's perfect , but if a bad product continues to be bad, I think it's a good idea to point that out to the rest of the forum ....Thank you for doing so....
Just don't let it happen again  ....Jim |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2005 5:37 am
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| There is another one on Ebay now. These are going to be sold and resold and resold for a while. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2005 8:25 am
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| I agree Bill,until someone gets PO'd and heaves one into the wood stove! That will break the sell and resell cycle!... Just kidding of course.. I wonder if they are really THAT bad,or maybe the poor guy just can't catch a break from us "picky pickers" on the forum.. I for one would like to try one out.. who knows, maybe they are just fine. I just don't want to spend the money to find out.... bob |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 17 Feb 2005 8:46 am
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Just a point of clarity, the RED PEDAL STEEL that came from Don was built with many Wilcox parts but was not itself a Wilcox guitar. Unfortunately, it was mostly the Wilcox parts that were non-functional, but Chet had nothing to do with the mis-wired pickup or the cracked body.
Making (and then SELLING!) a tuning head that does not have adequate clearance for the tuning keys to rotate without knocking each other out of tune is, to me at least, worthy of the warning. Hopefully the "real" Wilcox guitars don't have this feature. [This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 17 February 2005 at 08:48 AM.] |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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J W Alexander
From:
Reynoldsburg, Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2005 4:01 pm
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Well, here we are once again "eBay is a scam, don't trust anyone there, it's all junk, don't ever buy anything from there" all over again. It's nice to be alerted about an item of interest but this frequent Chicken Little thing about eBay being full of crooks and thieves grows old after the first million times here. Repeating myself I'd suggest KNOW your products, ASK many, many questions then-----ONLY then---consider buying or walking away.
eBay is a great resource even if there is the occassional incorrect information supplied. We've got to remember not everyone who has a steel guitar for sale knows everything about them! You'd also not believer how many wonderfully priced items actually sell for when they're not listed or identified properly---anything wrong with that? I don't think so IF you're the buyer!!
In short, walk away from eBay if something doesn't seem right----
J W |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 22 Feb 2005 10:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...this frequent Chicken Little thing about eBay being full of crooks and thieves... |
Wow, JW, while your points in general are all completely valid, nothing in my original post suggested anything of the sort, nor did I perceive such an attitude from any of the other posts in this thread.
I buy (and sell) great stuff on eBay all the time and 95% of the folks that I have done business with there have been a complete delight to encounter. I simply began this thread as a heads up about one seller and one builder in particular who have been responsible for some good folks getting burned.
It's particularly difficult to tell from a few photos what the quality of craftmanship is of any given instrument and with all the mechanical details of a PSG this can mean a great deal. In this case many knowledgeable folks have been taken in even after all the questions have been asked. I stand by my decision to say something out loud but I am in no way indicting eBay or the eBay community in any way.[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 22 February 2005 at 10:19 PM.] |
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J W Alexander
From:
Reynoldsburg, Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2005 3:05 am
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My bad, Dave-----call it a "knee jerk reaction" to a post I read about half---it's just that here on SGF more often than not any mention of eBay is the "warning: scam on eBay" type of thing!
I'm all for eBay if for no other reason it exposes what we have for sale (or want to buy) to a huge market and that's a good thing! While there are millions of things for prices we need to just leave alone the occasional great deal or long-desired item pops up and we're happy eBay is around.
Another point brought up frequently is why is something on eBay instead of SGF first? Mostly you'll find it WAS posted here but didn't bring any interest or the asking price so it ends up there. I don't think there's any problem whatsoever in that--a sale is a sale if that's the goal of the seller!
So anyway, I sincerely apologize for hi-jacking your post with my angst! I know we all appreciate your contributions here so don't let me ruin that for you!
J W |
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