Minor Chord Thought Process

Tim Tweedale · From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada

Say you want to play a Bb minor chord. I would like to know the fastest way to think this through. Currently, I think either down or up from the 12th fret or open.
For example: I say to myself: with pedal A down, the 12th fret (or open) is basically a C# (Db) minor chord. Go down a minor 3rd from Db and you get Bb, therefore Bb minor is accessible at the ninth fret.
Or I think, with the Es dropped to D#s, the 12th fret is a G# (Ab) minor chord; therefore either go up a whole tone or down a minor seventh to get to Bb minor.
Et cetera for other minor positions.
How do you think around minor chords? Is there a faster way?

-Tim

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Your question is kind of like asking, "How do I find major chords? I know that the twelfth fret is E, so if I go up or down six frets I'll get Bb. And with pedals down it's A, so I go up one fret to Bb. But is there a faster way?"

On the other hand, some thought processes seem to be faster than others. But I don't think you can make up a set of rules, because which minor chord position is best will depend on the music. Much like finding major chords, I think it's a matter of playing until you get familiar enough with the tuning that you don't have to think about it anymore.

Anyways, a couple more options would be:

There's a minor chord one fret up from the A+B position with the E's lowered. The first fret has an A minor chord, for example.

There's a minor chord two frets back from the no pedals position, by rooting on the seventh string and hitting your A and B pedals. The tenth fret has an E minor chord.

Another way of thinking about your A pedal minor chord is to think of it as the A+F position without the F lever. This way you can base your thinking off the no pedals position and just add three frets for a minor chord.

Another way to think of your E>D# minor chord is that it is always four frets back from the no pedals position. This is, of course, the same as the one above, one fret up from the A+B position, but if you're not in the A+B position it might be easier to think of it this way.

I'm sure there are lots more ways to find minor chords that aren't really based on obvious "positions." Going up four frets and playing ten, nine and seven is sort of an example of that. The only reason the "position" tricks work is that we're used to thinking of the neck from the open, no pedals position, so we don't really need to think about where things are. I'm sure that if everybody started learning the neck from the E>D# position, we'd relate everything to that. The point being, the straight no pedals position probably isn't intrinsically faster (although you could argue that, since it's the position the guitar defaults to when nothing is pressed), it's just that we're used to it. So, the more we learn about the other positions, the faster they'll get, and we won't have to pause to relate everything back to the key of E.

At least that's my theory. My thought process for minor chords is so far pretty baroque.

-Travis

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

I think in terms of "relative minors" to Major Chords. (the 6m, 2m, and sometimes 3m)

Since the Minor Chord I need is usually the 6m or 2m, of the key I'm playing in, this thought process works well for me. If I'm in an odd key, it is still just a simple as if I was playing in C major.

Example:
C Maj, no pedals, 8th fret -
press the A pedal and get the 6m (Am)
Press BC and get the 2m (Dm)

C Maj, AB pedals, 3rd fret -
press pedal A only and get 3m (Em)
press BC and have the 6m (Am)

Transpose these ideas into other keys.

Example: Play the 6m in the key of D#

Of course you can easily find a 2m if you have a 3m, by moving down two frets, and vice versa.

Excellent topic!
I like these "thought process" discussions.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Learn what makes the minor chord minor ( which notes is needed to make it sound minor)( in addition compare that voicing w the Major, Augmented and the diminsihed voicing also). Then with a little exploring one will find that the minor voicing is available starting on any string from 10 thru 5 on the E9 neck. Include one minor found on string 2 4 & 3 w the 2 lowered a whole tone.

The statement "Say you want to play a Bb minor chord" is not completely true. Becuse you want to play a Chord followed by a Bb minor, followed by another chord and that will dictate more or less where to play the Bb minor chord.
It maight take some time to see the relation within the chords but in the end it will be an advantage.

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 10 November 2004 at 08:51 AM.]

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 16 Sep 2004 5:28 am

I think of minor chords in relation to what key the band is in. Either major or minor it really doesn't matter. For example, Generally speaking in major keys the 6, 2 and the 3 are most always minor. Not always but usually. If 6, 2 or 3 isn't minor (in a major key) it is a temporary modulation. As far as quickly finding them, it is just second nature now, but it used to be that I would count up or down from the 1 chord looking for where I could get every related minor chord for that particular key. Thinking this way I soon realized that the patterns are the same over the whole fret board regardless of what key the tune is in.

Steve Knight · From: NC

If you're playing with a band (or at least a bass player) the root note will be played by the bass. If you're already used to playing major chords, you can play the major triad of the 3rd note of the minor chord that the band is playing.

Ughh, it sounds harder than it is.

When the bass is playing a D minor 7 (D, F, A, C), I might pay a F major (F, A, C.) The bassman has the root note (D) & I'm outlining the minor 3rd, 5th & 7th tones of the chord.

It's like learning the positions on the neck, if you think about what the notes of the chord are & what other chords work over that target chord often enough, then one day you won't have to think about it anymore. It just happens.

Tim Tweedale · From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada

Thanks for the answers. The diversity is interesting. Here's a better phrasing: what's the first thing you think to locate yourself when the first chord of a tune is Bb minor (suppose that the tune is IN Bb minor)? Joey, would you still relate it to it's relative major?
Oh, and while we're on the topic, what are some good minor key tunes with pedal steel? Thanks everyone, as always, for your collected wealth of knowledge.

-Tim

David Doggett · Posted 16 Sep 2004 9:02 am

I do like Joey. I go one and one-half step up from the minor letter to find the rel. major open fret, and hit the A pedal. For several common keys, I know the rel. minor by heart, and so I don't have to count frets (Am, go to the open C fret, Em go to G fret, Dm go to F fret, Bm go to the D fret, etc).

But finding all the minor chords once you are in a give key is different. How you find the minors depends on whether you are playing in a major or minor key. If I am in a major key, then I think like Joey. The minor chord you want is usually the relative minor (VIm), less often the IIm, and occassionally the IIIm.

In the open pedal I chord position, you get the rel. minor by just pressing the A pedal. In the AB pedal I chord position, you get the relative minor by pressing the BC pedals. You can also get the rel. minor at the open IV chord position by using the E lower lever. So you can get the rel. minor from the I, IV, or V chord position by using either the A pedal, E lever, or BC pedals, respectively.

You get the IIm by pressing the BC pedals at the open pedal I chord position, or by droppin down a whole step and using the E lever. You can also get the IIm by pressing the A pedal at the open IV chord position.

You get the IIIm at the open I position with the E lever. At the open V fret, you get IIIm with the A pedal.

So you get all of the above with no fret counting, and just matching the number system with your basic pedals and levers - so it works in any key, without even knowing the letter names of these minor chords.

But if you are playing in a minor key, things are a little different, but related. The main chords will be Im, IVm, and V7. I consider the A pedal Im position as analagous to the open pedal I position of a major key. I find these by knowing the relative minor (VIm, or one and one-half step down from the major I) for the common major keys. So A pedal Am is at the open C fret, Em at the open G fret, Dm at the F fret, etc.

At the A pedal Im postion you get the IVm with the BC pedals. The Im to IVm change in a minor key is the same as the rel. minor to IIm change in the rel. major key - so you already know this from above.

There is a lot of going back and forth between Im and V. At the A pedal Im position, you get V by dropping back one fret and pressing the AB pedals - easy as pie.

There is also a pocket at the fret where the BC pedals give you the Im, and another one where the E lever gives you the Im. This is getting too long, so I'll leave that for you to work out on your own (okay, I don't really know these off the top of my head like I should). The trick is to think in terms of the number system and pockets, rather than to try to memorize all the different places to get the letter names of the minor chords. This puts you in a good position to follow the chords by ear in any key. Knowing all the letter names is much more difficult, but is helpful for reading music, or when someone shouts out Bb minor.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 September 2004 at 10:18 AM.]

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

As Travis suggested, I often think "three frets up from open position".
One reason is, this thought process works equally well on any 6th-base tuning as well as E9, where you just add the A pedal.
-John

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Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I still don't quite understand the question. If you ask, "what's the first thing you think to locate yourself when the first chord of a tune is Bb major?" then the answer is, of course, it depends on what comes next, and which inversion I want to hear. No different for minor chords.

Maybe what you're saying is, "I find it simple enough to locate major chords by thinking of the fretboard as being in either the key of E or A. Finding minor chords by thinking in the key of E or A and then going up or down a certain number of frets seems slow to me. But I'm not enjoying finding minor chords by thinking of the fretboard as being based on C#m or G#m. Is there a better way?" Is it something like that? Because unless I'm missing something, those pretty much ARE the two ways of finding minor chords, except perhaps for memorizing where every note is with every pedal combination--useful if you could do it!

I think a good exercise would be to go through all the minor chord inversions on strings four, five and six (don't forget slants!). Just like when you were first learning the major chord positions. While doing this, you can either relate the minor chord positions you find back to some "easy to locate" major chord position, or you can use the practice to solidify the way you say you're already doing it, i.e. twelfth fret A pedal is C#(Db)m, so ninth fret must be A#(Bb)m, etc.

-Travis

Tim Tweedale · From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada

I find this all very helpful... The fact that David Doggett and Joey Ace both relate minor positions to their relative majors is very interesting. I think that this is the method I relate to best. When I read these posts, it clicked. In my study of music one of the best lessons I have learned is this: the more ways you have of figuring something out, the better, hence, the benefits all these different ideas.
Interesting chord substitution idea, too, Steve.
Travis -- I like the chord inversion idea, and I figured out a good exercise for this, walking through a diatonic cycle of 4ths in root position then 1st & second inversion (no slants), with a metronome set very slow, then connecting it to the nearest adjacent chord in the cycle.
So thanks again y'all for all the thoughts.
Question is still open: Good pedal steel tunes in minor?

-Tim

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Hmm... Scotty's book uses Greensleeves and House of the Rising Sun for its section on minor keys, as I recall... Greensleeves might be a good one to try--Buddy's version is on the Black album.

-Travis

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

The verse of Past The Point Of Rescue by Hal Ketchum is in a minor key. The chorus goes into the relative major.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

I am with Joey on this one. Well put.

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Tim Harr
Carter D-10 8p & 9k w/ BL-705s; Hilton pedal; Webb 6-14E Amplifier

http://groups.msn.com/TimHarrWebPage/yourwebpage.msnw

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

You might try doing whatever it was you did to learn the major keys to teach yourself the minor keys. If you put the practice time in it will start coming together after a while and you will find minor chords all over the place.

One thing to maybe try out is to really learn the neck with your major keys and chords. Make sure you know what every chord tone is you are playing.( You know.. 3rd, root, 7th or whatever). If you know that stuff on the majors the minors will become obvious after a little bit.

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Bob
intonation help

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

If you're talking about E9th,one thing you might do if you don't already have it is to add a lever or pedal that drops your G#s to G and if it's on a lever,it should be on the opposite knee from your E to D# lever because they can be used together for some nice moves.This change will allow you to get a minor in the root no pedals position and for me that was the missing link connecting all the other minor positions. Besides that,I would wean myself off the tangental thinking of having to think of one position first and then make some sort of mental calculation like "Let's see.....three frets up,A pedal down...." We all have done it but it wastes precious mental resources as well as precious nanoseconds when ideally it should all be memorized and all the common moves and progressions involving minor chords drilled in and right up on the front burner ready for instant use. -MJ-

Damien Odell · From: Springwood, New South Wales, Australia

I too have only been playing steel for about 7 months - and I added a lever in December that takes the G#'s to G's (E9). Best thing I ever did. I still use other minor positions - but if you're in a hurry or have a mental blank - just use that lever and you're outta trouble.

Damien

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I'm trying to think if I ever needed a Bb minor chord. What key would you use it in?

I see that if I'm in the key if F it would be a 4 minor which I know is always at the #5 fret. To I'd play it at the 9th fret with the A pedal, the 2nd fret with the E lever or the 4th fret with B+C pedals. This is all based on where I would find the 5 chord in F, and going up one fret.

But what other keys would I use the Bbm in? It's the 6 minor in Db, but nobody plays in Db.

Okay, it's the 2 minor in Ab. That's easier. 2 minor is like a 4 chord. The 4 chord is at the 2nd fret E lever, 4th fret A+B and 9th fret. The 2 minor is at the same places.

After a while, the relationships between the 3 positions for a minor chord become second nature. Thos relationships never change - the whole mental figure of the 3 position moves up and down the fretboard as a single unit.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

"I'm trying to think if I ever needed a Bb minor chord. What key would you use it in?"

More than likely, I'd be using it mostly in the key of Bb minor.

BTW...I love the G# to G change alot. It really does some great stuff on my Ext.E9!!!

Jay Fagerlie · From: Lotus, California, USA

Rick,
What's your copedant for the ext. E9?

Thanks

Jay

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Am I totally missing something here, or am I weird for working the last five years on memorizing the neck, i.e. trying to find all the major, minor, augmented, diminished chords, etc? Seems like less work than memorizing going back two frets, up four frets. Why not just learn the neck without pedals then with pedals, then with lever and pedal combinations and so on? Seems a lot easier to me. Again, I may totally be missing something, but it seems like learning the neck is a more direct route to learning where ALL the chords are, not just the minor ones.

David Doggett · Posted 3 Mar 2005 10:03 am

Believe it or not, I was just asked in the studio to make up a blues duet in Bb minor with a harmonica player. He wanted to play a slow minor blues by holding in the slide on a C chromatic harmonica, which gives the key of Bb minor. The producer, old school Philly jazz saxophonist Byard Lancaster, told us to make up a blues by first thinking of a dark night, then a train, and finally a marching band. He said not to think of anything we had ever heard before.

We had 15 minutes to come up with something out in the lobby of the studio. The harp player decided using the chromatic harp would be different, and the dark night had us thinking minor, and that was easier for him to play holding the slide in. But he didn't know what chord that was. I just held down the A pedal and slid up the neck til I found the chord at the ninth fret. Since I recognized that was a half step above the familiar Am chord at the C fret, I told him the key was A# minor. Then after a split second I said, "Hold it, make that Bb minor" (duh). Byard wanted to lay down a sax track later. I asked him if Bb minor was okay for him, and it was, since that is C minor for tenor sax.

I played it like it was the Am pocket at the 8th fret, but one fret up. I have no idea what the chords are for the key of Bb minor. All I know is I got the Im with the A pedal, the IVm at the same fret with the BC pedals, and the V by dropping back one fret and hitting the AB pedals. That's the value of knowing the number system for a common pocket. I cannot imagine learning the chords for all 24 major and minor keys. Nor can I imagine learning the name of every chord at every fret for every pedal/knee combination for every possible root string. Even if I could manage to memorize all that, down the road I wouldn't remember it for keys and chords I rarely play, like Bb minor.

As far as our improv blues, Byard only let us do one take. It would have been pretty good, except one of the legs on my Zum was loose, and when I hit the BC pedals for the IVm, my guitar skidded across the hardwood floor and the pedals didn't go all the way down. And once when I looked up at the control room, I came back in one fret sharp. Oh yeah, and the engineer wanted me to play direct into the board and let him use an amp model. I said I'd rather play through a real amp, but did he have a model for a Fender tube amp. He said, well we have a real Twin if you want it. So I decided not to go back out to the lobby for my own amp. But he rolled in a snakeskin covered The Twin. I never got it dialed in good (I don't think I ever could). Also, I tried to use just a touch of fuzz, but didn't get it dialed down low enough. I thought I would be able to adjust it before the second take. But there wasn't one. Once we started in on the dark night theme, we sort of forgot about the train and the marching band. After the one take, Byard said that's enough. He can be a little cryptic, so I don't know if he meant "that's good enough," or "forget it, I'm not using that crap."

Don't you just love studio work

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 03 March 2005 at 10:08 AM.]

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

Jazz theorists/players think of minor seventh chords as dorian, rather than relative minor. Meaning, your Bb minor seventh chord comes from Ab, not Db.
When you think strictly in terms of a relative minor, then you don't have the natural sixth in the scale.
-John

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