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Topic: Is it me ....... |
James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 5:31 am |
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or do some of you others think that since a lot of companies are coming out with "Boutique" amplifiers, that the price of tea is going up too fast ?
I can't wrap my head around companies that are making solid state amps , and charging for them like they are point to point hand wired amps ...I realize that some of these amps sound great ...I don't take that away from them , but to charge so much for a PC boarded amp ? .....I can't wrap my head around this ..
Then you go to another extreme, and Boss comes out with the Katana series of amps that blows away a lot of the high end amps , and charges lunch money for them ( ok ok , more than lunch money but you get the picture) ?
Is it me ? ....or has things gotten a little crazy? |
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Jay Ganz
From:
Out Behind The Barn
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 5:39 am
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That's cos the people overseas building them are basically working for lunch money  |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 7:55 am
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Hi Jay,
If this is the case , then we should be paying lunch money plus a little extra for desert , no ? ( similar to the price on the Katana )....Jim |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 9:14 am
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I tend to stick with the old reliables: Fender and Peavey.
Let the pickers who are looking for "that" sound invest in the boutique amps, they come and go just like the wind.  |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 9:46 am
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| Jay Ganz wrote: |
| That's cos the people overseas building them are basically working for lunch money |
I have a feeling in the next 4 years we are going to see prices skyrocket on tinker toy amps made abroad. The playing field will level, and all of a sudden the prices us "boutique" builders have been charging this whole time will fall in line with the junk made overseas and make more sense. Manufacturing in the US is extremely difficult to do and costs a lot of money, especially when sourcing parts that are also made here.
While I do not make PCB based amplifiers myself (everything is hand wired) I can say that if properly done, PCB can be very very good. There is a difference between your standard guitar center PCB amp, and a high quality PCB amp. Thickness of the board comes to mind, and also the layout of the components. A "boutique" PCB amplifier will by nature have a longer lifespan because it will be much easier to repair, and will need repair less often. Also, PCB layout is a huge factor in how good the amp sounds - you do not want to overlook that one. Tone does not come from a board of directors and accountants - it comes from engineers spending time and sparing no expense.
If you want to save a buck, and you don't care about where its made and how, then I suppose this thread may make sense.
However, If you are playing a $4500 steel guitar that was hand made by an experienced builder and you are complaining when an amplifier builder is doing the same thing... I am not sure what to say to that end.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Mike Archer
From:
church hill tn
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 9:54 am Erv
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what Erv said is where I'm at also
I know you guys that build the tube amps are great
and all and I wish you the best always
I hope your sales get even better but
on my budget its not going to happen....
mike 
_________________
Mullen sd10
Nashville 400 amp
Tele/ fender deluxe |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 10:03 am Re: Erv
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| Mike Archer wrote: |
what Erv said is where I'm at also
I know you guys that build the tube amps are great
and all and I wish you the best always
I hope your sales get even better but
on my budget its not going to happen....
mike |
I'm also willing to bet that, in 2030, you'll still be able to find a Session 400, but the new 115 or a reissue Twin will be scarce.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 10:17 am
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A "boutique" PCB amplifier will by nature have a longer lifespan because it will be much easier to repair
Tim,
I don't follow your thoughts on this ....How is a PCB amp easier to repair than a point to point amp ?....and as far as a longer lifespan, I've had PCB amps that have had components go bad, and you can't fix them without hacking up the PC board ...To me , they are "throw away " amps when they need repair and should be priced that way ... I do agree that there are better PCB amps out there , but I still don't think that they meet the same standard as a hand made ptp amp ....
As far as paying $4500 for a pedal steel , I have no problem with that as when something breaks on it , parts are available and most pedal steels guitars are hand made , just as your point to point amps are hand made .. They are worth the extra money ...My issue is with solid state amps on PCB's that are egineered by someone, and then punched out by a machine in whatever quantities .... and most of the time they are outsourced to an overseas's company to cut costs even more ... Jim |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 1:05 pm
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I stand behind this.
A lot of equipment is built on printed circuit boards and components are easily repaired. Look at the new line of marshall amplifiers for example. They are PCB but have the appearance of a hand wired amp. Nice and clean, and very easy to fix!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 2:11 pm
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
I stand behind this.
A lot of equipment is built on printed circuit boards and components are easily repaired. |
+1 ... 100% 
If I hadn't been perfectly happy with my NV112s power stages (for playing steel through - not for anything else), I would most likely go for a well designed amp in the well above $2000.- class, and it would most likely be a properly designed PCB based amp. PTP is for the odd components, also in a PCB based amp.
But, I have decades of experience in laying out on and working with PCBs of good quality, and can easily recognise a high quality layout/design when I see one - in an open amp. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 2:37 pm
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| I would have to say that I am not familiar with the "new" PCB amps , but the amps that I have used in the past and still have were not easy to work on ..Evidently things have gotten better with PCB amps that I am not aware of .... I am speaking of amps that came from good companies ( I won't mention any names ) that had components go bad that were NOT an easy fix as you guys speak of ...I guess "properly designed " are the operative words here ... Not being an amp builder , I would not know if a PCB amp was properly designed or not ... I would soon find out if said amp ever needed to be repaired ...I know with all my ptp amps , I can not only have an easy repair , but also change values on things to change the tone if I so choose .. I do however understand your points about the newer PCB amps ....Point well taken .... Jim |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 2:40 pm
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Tim,
Out of curiosity , why don't you build PCB amps ? You raise good points about them ....Just wondering ..Thanks ..Jim |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 7:06 pm
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| A person that goes from a Toyota to a Bentley or Rolls-Royce doesn't instantly become a better driver. Yes, top of the line stuff is made better and usually sounds better. If it didn't, nobody would bother buying it. But IMHO, if you're not at a certain skill level, the investment is sorta wasted. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 11:14 pm
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| James Quackenbush wrote: |
Tim,
Out of curiosity , why don't you build PCB amps ? You raise good points about them ....Just wondering ..Thanks ..Jim |
I started building amplifiers onto turret boards, and I am not going to change any time soon. At least not for my current lineup and high ticket all tube amplifiers.
That said, I am working on a new product that uses a hybrid PCB/Turret layout. Its a steel guitar product too... because of the PCB I can cut the cost down, and its going to be every bit as high quality as my current turret based amplifiers. Keep an eye out for that one soon!
So yeah, PCB has a place in the boutique world. It just has to be manufactured with great care, like everything else.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 5:18 am
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OK , Fair enough ....Now ...
Does the PCB section that cuts the cost of the build , even though it's a great layout ,
1) Net the builder higher profits , as the price doesn't drop because of his/her cost savings on the build
or
2) Cost the builder less to build and the savings will be passed onto the purchaser while still giving the builder a fair profit
I don't begrudge any amp builder a profit , however , if the amp is NOT going to be hand made PTP where it physically takes more man hours to build and there is more cost involved , why should it cost the same ?
The point you made about a PCB amp that is properly put together can be an easy fix if something goes wrong , is well taken ...and the fact that it can be a great sounding amp if properly designed is also well taken ....The fact still remains that it cost's less to build a PCB amp ...Why are they being priced at the same price as a PTP amp ? ....
Back in the mid 80's Fender came out with their " Made in Japan " line of guitars ...I remember it well because we American's boo'ed anything that was made in Japan and considered it JUNK !!...and rightfully so , a lot of it WAS junk ....But the Made In Japan Fenders were actually BETTER than the USA Fenders in that time period !!.... They were cheaper to build , and Fender charged less for them ... and STILL turned a profit |
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Howard Montgomery
From:
Topeka, KS US
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 5:52 am
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| To compara a high end solid state steel amp to the Boss Katana line is not a fair comparison, and to assume the price of an item is only based on the cost of parts is not realistic. There are research and development costs and normal business overhead that have to be spread out in the prices you pay for a product. If you compare the number of steel amps sold to a reletively few steel players vs a guitar amp sold to a bizillion bedroom guitar players across the world, you can see how a lot more costs are piled on to the reletively few. Also, in general, pricing is based on what the market will pay for an item based on value, not the cost of the parts. Otherwise software should be close to free. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 6:04 am
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Hi Howard ,
I threw the Katana in there to show how cheaply a S.S. amp could be made and still sound good ...I'm surely not comparing the quality of the Katana to higher end S.S. builds .... Just showing that a cheaply built S.S. amp could sell for very little money ... Find me a PTP tube amp that sells for the same price new ....and you can add all the R&D that you want to ...The point that I am trying to make is that S.S. PCB amps are cheaper to produce and you can include all the R&D you want ....Bottom line , they are cheaper to produce and they are selling for the same price as a much costlier PTP tube amp ....Maybe it's only ME that see's this ...From all the PCB defenders , I guess I"m pretty much alone in my thoughts .... .....That's cool !!...Jim |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 7:11 am
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| I guess Peavey amps mush be pretty well designed and easy to work on because when you send an amp to Peavey for repair, it sure doesn't cost you an arm and a leg. |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:39 am
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Ah, but "easy to work on" depends largely on the skill and experience of the technician. Some techs don't have the training and tools required to service modern solid-state amps. Replacing a screen resistor on a tube socket is a lot different than changing a surface-mount resistor that's smaller than a flea. But for someone with the right experience and setup, the surface-mount part is no big deal.
Surely one reason Peavey can sustain their admirable product service ethic is by staffing their repair benches with well-trained techs. |
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Bruce Derr
From:
Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:53 am
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Howard's point about scale also affects the cost of parts. Boss and other big makers get parts cheaper than smaller builders because they buy in larger quantities. They are also able to invest in tooling to automate other aspects of the build besides the PCB, such as cabinets.
Putting a PCB in an amp that is made in small quantities doesn't alone make the amp cheap to produce.
PCB amps in general are only as good as the amp's design. Same goes for point-to-point amps and turret-board amps. I've seen plenty of poor designs in the latter category as well as the former. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 10:25 am
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| James Quackenbush wrote: |
| [...] The point that I am trying to make is that S.S. PCB amps are cheaper to produce and you can include all the R&D you want ....Bottom line , they are cheaper to produce and they are selling for the same price as a much costlier PTP tube amp [...] |
Cheaper amps are mainly cheaper to produce because cheaper, lower quality, components are used everywhere, and corners are cut everywhere throughout the design and production.
As a rule it is definitely cheaper to produce larger series of a given (pre-defined) quality amps on PCBs - once the series is large enough for a more or less automated production line.
Designing and building a cheap amp that sounds "good enough" to most people, is the easiest thing in the world - especially if it can be "voiced" to deliver specific sound characteristics to a specific group of customers.
Smaller series of higher quality products are rarely ever "all PCB throughout". No matter the quality of the PCB, a PCB can only carry so weighty, hot and/or odd-shaped components.
For high quality amps, selected components in the high quality, high price range, have to be used.
The higher quality a builder aims for, the more each detail of the build has to scrutinized and designed/equipped for its purpose. Not much room for taking short-cuts.
Highest quality amps are not "voiced" - they are neutral sounding, which quite often make them "unsuited" for people who have gotten used to "voiced" amps.
PCB or not PCB, high quality amps cost time and money to design and build. For smaller series there isn't much, if any, time or money to save on "going PCB", but the right mix of PCB and PTP most definitely can help on quality and longevity.
Also, in my opinion and experience, a well-design and well-built (mainly) PCB based amp is easier to perform service on than an equivalent PTP amp. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 11:01 am
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A large company like Peavey will likely have extra PCB boards for their amp models ready to go. When a loaded board costs $25 its not a bad idea to keep a few extras around for repairs.
When you send in an amp for repair, they may just pull the whole board out and put a new one in because its likely less expensive to do that than to find a fault on a board that looks like the top of an all seed bagel. I like to call this the shotgun approach.
Repairing a turret board or PTP amp requires a bit more skill from the tech.
Cost mostly has to do with 2 things. I am not going to do economics 101 here - but keep this in mind:
1 - economy of scale. Peavey makes 500 amps for every Evans, Milkman etc. That is going to lower cost on each individual part used. When you order 10,000 capacitors, you get a better price than when you order 100.
2 - labor. Having a factory in Malaysia knock out 1000 circuit boards on a wave soldering machine is vastly less expensive than having a few techs on an assembly bench wrap components around turrets. A board for a simple 200W solid state tube amp can cost as little as $25, pre stuffed, and ready to go with quick connectors on it so you can pop it into a chassis and be done with it.
So for a small boutique company to make PCB amps... Price has got a lot more to do with how many they are capable of selling (demand) and what the scale of their purchasing is than how the amplifier is constructed internally.
Speaking only for myself: Milkman amplifiers are made the way they are because that is the most reliable, and quickest way for me make amplifiers in small batches. Not a lot of people know this, but every Milkman amplifier is made one at a time by just me. Alone. 0 employees. I have built over 600 of these things single handedly. If I were using printed circuit boards, it would not really save me any time.
This unnamed boutique PCB amplifier company is adrift in an ocean of economics and they are probably a lot closer to the Milkman boat than the Peavey boat in terms of how things are priced. Hopefully that sheds some light on this!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 4:56 pm
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What's interesting is that the PC boards that folks here are speaking of can cost the builder very little in comparison to what is charged for them when an amp fails ....The only thing that makes them easier to work on , is the fact that they are replaced , not actually worked on ...
With PTP parts can be individually replaced ....
Same principle behind heating systems with PC boards ..( ask me how I know ) and also the so called "brains" in automobiles ....The actual cost is minimul however we as consumers get charged big time for them ...and please don't tell me about the R&D that was involved ... Next thing I will be hearing is that pharmaceuticals cost so much because of all the R&D ... ..... Jim
PTP a small item get's replaced ....In PCB unit's the entire board gets replaced ...
IT's a throw away world .... The hurrier we go , the behinder we get !!....Jim |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 5:33 pm
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| James Quackenbush wrote: |
| PTP a small item get's replaced ....In PCB unit's the entire board gets replaced ... |
Depends on the company-policy, not the technology.
| James Quackenbush wrote: |
| IT's a throw away world .... The hurrier we go , the behinder we get !!....Jim |
You're right about that. |
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