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Topic: Question For Mike Perlowin |
Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 9 Dec 2016 6:11 am |
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I'll be interested to know it too. That's a very Emmons place to have that change, but I'm not sure how much freedom it allows the left leg.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2016 7:26 am
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| While quite obviously I am not Mike, on my universals I have my E lowers on the LKR as well and find that it doesn't restrict my left leg much. I tried it on the right knee for a couple of months and just didn't like it as much. Perhaps if I used the C6th side of the tuning more it would matter but for now- gonna keep it as I have for 45 years. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2016 9:47 am
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Mike doesn't play the typical "C6th style" very much. He's a classical musician. I don't think he holds his LKR in when he uses the inside pedals. He thinks of it more as one big tuning than two different modes of playing.
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 9 Dec 2016 11:27 am
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The short answer is that lowering my E strings on the LKR is not a problem. But it's more complicated than that.
First, I'm not much of a B6 player. 99% of what I play is on the E9 side of the tuning. All that classical stuff I like to play uses the same kinds of chords and scales as country music, and while pedal-mashing licks don't work most of the time, the chord and scale configurations that are made by working the pedals are perfectly suited for this kind of music.
Second, look at my RKR.
On the E9 side, it provides the missing low D note, (As well as giving me the note on the 2nd string.) But on the B6 side, if I engage it while releasing the LKR, it becomes the B6 C pedal.
On those rare occasions when I attempt to play the B6, I alternate between the LKR and the RLR, and when I use the RKR, my left foot is free to go anywhere.
The other thing is that we can get used to anything. I've had the E string lowers on my LKR for approximately 35 years. In 1980 or '81, I had the change moved to my RKL. After a very short time I moved it back to the LKR, where it's been ever since.
I'm giving a concert on December 28.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=309878
If any of you guys attend, I'll be happy to show you my guitar.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:18 am
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| I added lever locks to several of my guitars but found I rarely used them so no longer do that. I suppose if I spent more time on the 6th side of things then I do I might reconsider it- like the week I spent w Jeff and Buddy in a uni class it was helpful as we spent the whole week on the 6th side. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 9:41 am
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One thing to keep in mind is the lever that Mike describes. If you have a lever that lowers the 8th string E to D, releasing your 4th string lower at the same time gives you exactly the same change as C6th pedal 6. If you have a lock (or hold your E lowers in), you have to have a P6 and raise the 4th string from its lowered position. Mike's way is more efficient.
I've never been an advocate of U-12 as it seems to me to be unnecessarily complex. I've been playing an 8-string D6th with a few E9th changes added to it for the past 6 years. I have a 10-string D6th on order that will fill in the E9th gaps. The main advantage of D6th is that both "sides" of the copedent have the same root. The main disadvantage is that most players are much more familiar with E9th than C6th, so they would have to get used to that extra string in the middle of the high strings if they wanted to switch. Plus you need to think in D tuning instead of E or C.
I'm a folk-rock musician and a music theorist, not a hot session player. I believe that almost all of what we hear on records, both C6th and E9th, can be emulated on a single 10 string neck. I say "emulated", not "duplicated", because there is a difference in timbre on the D6th. Also, the different string order affects the right hand's natural phrasing. Blues comes more naturally; country is a little bit harder.
I'll be posting more about 10-string D6th next year, after I have some experience with it. In the meantime, looking at the 8-string may give you a better idea of what I'm talking about. It's the same as the middle 8 strings of C6th, raised a step, with A and B pedals added (P1 and P2). The LKV used with P1 emulates the C pedal.
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I present this idea as an alternative to those considering a U-12. I know it's unconventional, but it's simpler to tune and it works well.
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Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 8:09 am
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I'm playing a custom-made 8-string Desert Rose. Before that, I was play a Williams D-12 crossover. I dreaded changing strings on it, and knew that there were a lot of common changes between the two necks. The C# lever on C6th and the F lever on E9th, for example, do the same thing. I wanted a lighter, simpler instrument.
Around the same time, I stumbled across Sneaky Pete's discography page on AllMusic.com. It's huge, and it's all backing real big stars. This convinced me that the copedent and number of strings are things that are only important to steel players. Recording artists and producers (with the possible exception of Nashville) are mainly concerned with getting the sound of the instrument, played well, onto their records.
As an experiment, I designed an 8-string tuning with the changes that I use the most from both necks. The day after my Desert Rose arrived, I had a folk-rock recording session. The artist loved the sound, and it went on the album (Folk University by Doug Jayne). I sold the D-12 and I've been performing exclusively on the S-8 ever since.
What I mainly miss is the sound of the chromatic strings on E9th. The 10-string version of my D6th copedent will solve that with a 1st string E. (The E9th 2nd string notes are already there inside the D6th chord.) I'm also adding the low D as the 10th string.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 8:42 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| If you have a lock (or hold your E lowers in), you have to have a P6 and raise the 4th string from its lowered position. |
Unless you do what I do. The lever that lowers the Es to D# also (if I push it a bit further) lowers the 8th string to D, giving one half of the P6 function. The other half (raising 4 to E) is done, obviously, by releasing the lever altogether. If I want the full P6 strum I raise 9 from B to D.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 1:21 pm
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Stays at D#, b0b, providing the stop for the 8th string D#.
I thought about having it rise to E like a true P6, but I share your view that a uni 12 can be over-complicated.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 19 Dec 2016 8:17 pm Lever placement
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Jeff Newman turned me on to the Universal tuning way back in the day days. I had it originally on the RKL as one of his tunings showed. Played that way for about 20 years. Not much 6th though. Put the steel away for awhile and when I started playing again I decided to try more 6th stuff. Put that e lower on my RKR. That's where it should be IMHO if you play a lot of 6th stuff or are just starting. Frees up your left leg for pedals. To this day I don't seem to have a problem with it there for all the new stuff I learned but the old stuff I find myself trying to play I still try to play as if were RKL. I also find that its not as tiring to hold the RKR than the RKL. Thought process for learning new placement was e changes on the outside knees.
Bob: I also lower my 8th string a whole tone with the RKL as opposed to pulling the B up 3 for no other reason than I prefer it that way. 4th string stays as is at e.
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MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 3:37 am
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I agree, Tom, that if you play a lot of B6 RKR is really the only place to lower the Es, and the 9th string D has to go as it would upset the usual grips.
I lower 8 E to D and raise 9 B to D. The first serves as P6 and the B raised to D, in conjunction with the A pedal, replaces the 9th string lower to C# on the E9 which would be sorely missed.
Hope that makes sense.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 4:04 am
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You can always tune 4 and 8 to D# and raise them to E on a lever, much like the Bb6 tuning (but unflatted).
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 12:02 pm
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Bearing in mind that the 8th string covers as many as four notes, when designing a uni setup it's a big decision what its neutral position should be. Probably never F or D, but I reckon E and D# are as good as each other.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 2:09 pm
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Tom, I also lower my 8th string instead of raising my 9th. But if you are lowering the E strings to D# on the RKR and the 8th to D natural on the RKL, how do you avoid the e natural when you go from one to the other?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 7:18 pm Question?
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Don't quite understand the question Mike. When neither lever is engaged it is an e natural. I pretty much use a straight Newman Tuning except for the e to d lower. Also on my LKR I lower the 7th string 1/2 tone to get a diminished chord in conjunction with RKL. I have the LKR further to the right so it doesn't get in the way of using the 6th pedals.
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MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 8:00 pm
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Tom: If you lower the 8th string to D# on RKR, and it to D on RKL, you lose the standard change of lowering D# to D (pedal 6 on C6th). You'll always hear the E in between. That's what Mike is pointing out (I think).
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 8:26 pm
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bOb, That is Correct. But that LKL is not used(by me)when on the 6th side of the tuning. If I wanted to lower from D# or Eb to D I would use my 6th pedal which also raises my 4th string that the RKR lowered to D# back up to an E.
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MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 10:47 pm
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I see. I imagine that you have 3 lowers and 1 raise on your 8th string, and 1 lower and 3 raises on your 4th string. Correct?
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Tom Mossburg
From:
AZ,
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Posted 20 Dec 2016 11:21 pm
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That is correct
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MSA Studio Pro U-12 x 2, Telonics |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 21 Dec 2016 12:14 am
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| Tom Mossburg wrote: |
| bOb, That is Correct. But that LKL is not used(by me)when on the 6th side of the tuning. If I wanted to lower from D# or Eb to D I would use my 6th pedal which also raises my 4th string that the RKR lowered to D# back up to an E. |
I See.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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