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Topic: Fender Hot-Rod Deluxe for Steel? |
Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2015 12:21 am |
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Anyone using this amp for pedal steel? My LTD 400 needs to visit the factory where it was born, and my HR Deluxe has been used very little.
Pedal steel thru Clean channel is usable, but only with treble and presence on 0. Even then it is too bright. My 6139 ShoBud has tone and volume controls on the deck, and reducing volume, and high-end does help.
Amp has original stock speaker. The Double-T 12 is attractive, and would reduce weight. But before springing for a new speaker I'm interested in ideas for tone circuit mods to improve mid-range, roll off high-end, and reduce pre-amp gain.
Thanks,
Dan |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Nov 2015 2:44 am
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YES, I use one regularly.
DON'T assume that this amp will be anything like the typical Fender amp with the famous tone stacks. DR, SR, TR..etc...it's not and never will be.
It's a fine amp but it can tend to be shrill, meaning very bright and hard to tame, especially with single coils. For a small room where you don't need to push a lot of air it can do the job.
ok...now the rest of the story.
The inherent design of this amp is such that it is bright and harsh with barely controllable mids. But, it can be workable even in stock condition.
With my Pro I Sho Bud , single coil pup, it is bright , too bright.
With the Emmons Push Pull , single coils, it's much better.
For me, I use the HRDLx for 3 gigs a month and one of the gigs I use the Sho Bud so I made some changes.
First, new premium Power Supply Caps, huge improvement in bottom end. This was like night and day for the bottom end.
Installed some of the Fromel tone stack mods which kinda tame the high end but more so allow the mids to sweep more accurately. It's a few caps and a slope resister, maybe not even necessary.
Pulled the 3 preamp tubes ( AX7's ), replaced then with AT7's which are lower gain. During the gig I put the AX7 back into V1 as I felt I was pushing the amp. Use ECC83's here, I will most likely pull V3 and put the ECC83 back, I may even put the AT7 back in V1 and see what happens.
Use quality tubes...
Set the 6L6 bias to around 68 MV which is just under what Fender recommends, making it run just a tad colder, less opportunity to break up. I may even drop it to 60mv.
Pulled the stock Fender 12" Gold label Eminence speaker and replaced it with an Eminence Cannabis Rex, 50 watt speaker. The shrill high end is gone, but now the mids may be a tad stronger than I like ! Go figure...
But overall the amp is much closer to what I am seeking.
Volume wise , very respectable and clean for small rooms.
I think that premium quality E Caps, quality tubes, a lower bias setting and maybe a less shrill speaker can make this a fine amp overall.
The Steel and PUP matter as well.
good luck
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2015 6:06 pm
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Thanks, Tony. Lots of great ideas.
Upgraded filter caps for more clean headroom and tighter bottom might be worthwhile, but I think they can wait. I'm using the amp just for practice.
Right out of the gate I see some low hanging fruit. I will check and set output stage bias. There is a mid-range mod that is simply a jumper on two of the potentiometer's pins. And I'll try using input #2 for its lower gain (-6dB ?). All free.
It might be interesting to compare the stock 12" speaker with the 15" EV in the LTD 400 cabinet.
I also found this... scroll down to HOT ROD MODS and HOT ROD 101: TONE MOD
http://www.tangible-technology.com/tubes/guitar_amps/Fender/HRD/hrd-1a.htm |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2015 12:23 pm
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I found that it was a particularly good steel amp for quieter venues and churches. I had heard that Lloyd Green used this amp for recording. It is not very forgiving when you have to push it a little bit.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 30 Nov 2015 12:58 pm
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| you could probably get a better steel amp by picking up an old used pv bandit for a hundred bucks. |
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Luke Sullivan
From:
El Paso de Robles, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2015 3:02 pm Hemp butta'.
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My old HR Deluxe was hardly used because of the brittle highs. Cannabis Rex speaker did wonders for that. The Hemp cones really handle the bass. So I had a Fromel mod installed and now, it sounds like butta'.
I can rattle the walls. I don't play for money, but I call it a great steel amp.
_________________
Mullen PRP D10, accordions, Harmony Sovereign guitar. |
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Michael Remming
From:
Kimberly, Idaho, USA (deceased)
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2015 9:51 pm
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Thanks, Michael. Great post by Ken. Aren't they all?
| chris ivey wrote: |
| you could probably get a better steel amp by picking up an old used pv bandit for a hundred bucks. |
I don't doubt it, Chris. But this amp is already in my music room. Got it years ago to use with my Les Paul.
For $15 I can do the mods recommended by Ken Fox. A bargain to get black-face tone stack. I've had this amp for years, but hardly used it, so tubes are like new.
My main steel amp is an LTD 400. But need a stand-in so I can send the Peavey for a few days at the spa in Meridian, MS. |
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Richard Wilhelm
From:
Ventura County, California
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Posted 1 Dec 2015 9:33 pm
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Any though on the Deville? I've had a Deluxe but have felt the Deville had a deeper sound thus taming the highs. Used ones can be had for an affordable price (a little over $500). Some good input in this thread on the Deluxe. Love this Forum.
_________________
"Be Kind to Animals, don't eat Them"
"If you know music, you°ll know most everything you°ll need to know" Edgar Cayce
"You're only young forever" Harpo Marx
Fender 400, Fender FM212, G&L ASAT.
Was part of a hippie-Christian store in Cotati, California (circa 1976) called THE EYE OF THE RAINBOW. May God love you. |
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Michael Remming
From:
Kimberly, Idaho, USA (deceased)
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Posted 2 Dec 2015 5:14 am
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| Dan, If you make Ken's mods please let us know the results. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 2 Dec 2015 2:40 pm
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| Richard Wilhelm wrote: |
| Any though on the Deville? I've had a Deluxe but have felt the Deville had a deeper sound thus taming the highs. Used ones can be had for an affordable price (a little over $500). Some good input in this thread on the Deluxe. Love this Forum. |
I also own and use a 2x12 Deville. I actually purchased it because the 1st HRDLx I bought back round 95 or so was really not making it for double duty, Steel and Guitar, headroom was just not there. Even after multiple "try this and try thats"...
what you get from the stock Deville,
more headroom
more bottom end
basically the same tone, it's the exact same preamp
If you like the HRDlx but just find it not strong enough with headroom, the Deville solves that. If you are playing a larger room more often than a smaller room, the Deville is a worthy upgrade.
Oh and this, the Deville is not like a Twin Reverb. Doesn't sound like a Twin and doesn't have the same clean gain characteristics.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2016 10:45 pm
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| Michael Remming wrote: |
| Dan, If you make Ken's mods please let us know the results. |
Well, here's a (not timely) update on this project.
I am doing the mods that Ken suggested. Completed the change to the mid-range control. Makes the tone circuit like older Fender designs, where signal is off when bass, mid and treble are all set to 0. Super easy change, except for mishigas of removing the chassis and PCB. A solder land on the mid-pot wiper to signal pin, that's it.
Also clipped the low volume/high-end boost on the reverb circuit that makes it so "swampy."
These changes just finished this evening, and I haven't tried it yet, except to verify "No Smoke" and it still works.
Ordered parts from Mouser to change bass cap (C5) to .022uF, treble cap (C7) to silver-mica 500pF, and slope resistor (R12) from 130K to 56K. Will let you know.
This amp is 48 pounds on the bathroom scale. I'm considering the Eminence Double T-12 (Travis Toy) from Kevin Hatton to replace the stock speaker. It's an investment, but on top of its sonic virtues, would make this a sub-40 pound package. We'll see, but it's starting to feel like Hannukah. |
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Jeff Watson
From:
Anza, CA. USA
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Posted 4 Dec 2016 7:54 am
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| Can't say enough about a hemp coned speakers ability to not only tame shrill highs but transform them into a smooth beautiful bloom. I've been using Tone Tubby Low Watts but it sounds like a lot of folks are getting similar results with Eminence Cannabis Rex's and that's a very affordable speaker. |
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David Spires
From:
Millersport, OH
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Posted 4 Dec 2016 10:48 am
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Yes to the HR Deluxe, and I have been using a 2x12" DeVille for some club dates. Having the Drive channel really is nice if you are after those tones too, or for using them on lap steel / slide.
Good luck!
David Spires
_________________
2021 MSA Legend XL 10&7; Asher Electro-Hawaiian Junior Lap Steel; '79 OMI Dobro 66 w/ Scheerhorn cone and setup; '64 Hand-wired Re-issue Fender Princeton Reverb |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 4 Dec 2016 1:19 pm
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Travis Toy's 12" speaker would be a great addition...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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robert kramer
From:
Nashville TN
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Dec 2016 8:31 pm
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I spent time testing the first set of mods (one jumper, one snip).
This amp was too-bright, with a brittle high-end. I had wrongly attributed that to the speaker. Ken Fox said otherwise. I shouldn't be surprised, but the difference is profound, and we're just getting started. Treble and Presence are adding detail, without sounding harsh. EQ is better controlled, but preamp is unbalanced toward the low end. The new tone capacitors and slope resistor should clean that up. I'm hopeful of good results from 10-bucks and some of my time.
Robert - others have said the same about the Eminence Canabis Rex, it's a contender. Lloyd Green sounds great! Thanks.
John - thanks for vote of confidence on that. Travis says it brings the steel "forward" in the mix. That's a big deal when you're using a 40-watt amp, and it will reduce weight.
Tone stack updates should yield a very nice Fender amp. The right speaker could elevate it to very nice small-venue pedal-steel amp. |
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Spencer Scott
From:
England (deceased)
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Posted 6 Dec 2016 2:39 am
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I use the Hot rod deluxe all the time,I have a Telonics 12inch 8ohm speaker in it.Sounds good to me.
Spence UK |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 8 Dec 2016 1:45 pm
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I have been using a Custom Shop Hot Rod Deluxe III with a Eminence Canabis Rex 12" speaker for over a year. It apparently has a different tone stack than the stock HRD. It sounds tremendous - I bought it to use with my Tele...but, I am glad that I decided to try it with my pedal steel.
_________________
Tim Harr
Mullen G2 D-10 (9p/5k)
Retired, US Army Band (Steel/Dobro/Guitar)
Kemper Profiler / LW 89
Last edited by Tim Harr on 8 Dec 2016 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2016 6:25 pm
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If you happen to have a preamp more suited to steel laying around, the Hot Rod and Blues series amps make fine slave (power amp & speaker ) combos.
If you can get said preamp closer to your guitar, it also means you might be able to make adjustments without turning around. |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2016 10:56 pm
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| Tim Harr wrote: |
I have been using a Custom Shop Hot Rod Deluxe III with a Eminence Canabis Rex 12" speaker for over a year. It apparently has a different tone stack than the stock HRD. It sounds tremendous - I bought it to use with my Tele...but, I am glad that I decided to try it with my pedal steel.
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Tim,that's a nice looking rig.
With a bit of luck I'll finish the tone stack changes tomorrow. Can't wait to try my Carter with it.
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 8:52 pm
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This is it... today was the big day! Here's what I did, step by step:
Remove back cover, drain power supply filter caps, remove nuts from all controls and 1/4" jacks.
Remove 6 PCB retaining screws, move the PCB away from the front panel, and tilt up so the back of the board is reachable.
Care is needed during removal and reassembly to avoid damaging controls, push-button switches and drive LED.
Stuart kept an eye on things to make sure we had no cold solder joints.
• Mid-range control: control is changed to function as a variable resistor, instead of a potentiometer (as in other classic Fender tone-stacks). On the reverse side of the PCB solder a land (or a small piece of wire) across the signal and wiper pins of the Mid-range pot.
Remove three components, and replace with the values shown:
• C5 - bass cap: 0.022uF/400v (Sprague orange-drop)
• C7 - treble cap: silver-mica 500pF/1Kv
• R12 - slope resistor: 56K (thin film, 0.6W)
Bass and Mid controls are labelled "B" and "M."
That's it! This took me about 2 hours, and was not very demanding, in terms of electronics assembly and soldering skills.
Results? SPECTACULAR!! It's like a completely different amp. Using the amp before was an ongoing battle against the brittle highs, and flabby, muddled lows (like a "loudness" control that was always on).
Now the controls (all of them) are truly useful. Bass, Mid and Treble are predictable and responsive. Adjustments dial in different "flavors," all different, but none of them bad. Presence adds a nice sparkle, with no harshness.
This is still just a 40-watt amp. But I think it will sound louder now. Less power wasted in flabby low end, more where it matters. Have you done something similar? Please tell us about it. |
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Jim Bloomfield
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2016 10:06 pm
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| It's way over my head but I'd love to hear it. Thanks for posting Dan. |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2016 1:30 pm
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| Jim Bloomfield wrote: |
| ...I'd love to hear it. Thanks for posting Dan. |
Jim, let's do that soon.
Sound check, you can try my new guitar, and we'll work on some of your originals. |
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