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Topic: Help understanding a copedent? |
Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 7:09 pm |
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I'm a newbie and I've got a LOT to learn. Hoping some of you experts can help me assess my situation...
I picked up a new (to me) steel guitar and I'm trying to understand the copedent it arrived with. It seems like there's at least one major issue (LKL only raises the 4th string E, not the 4th and 8th) that I'll need to address, but I'm thinking I'm not done there.
So my question is - does this copedent correspond to any famous player setups? Is there any way I'd want to leave it as is rather than just trying (if I can figure out how) to convert it to a more standard Emmons setup?
Basically - I'm trying to figure out if this thing just got messed up by a tinkerer-type or if there's a method to the madness.
Last edited by Andrew Wright on 13 Oct 2016 8:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 7:57 pm
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Hello, Andrew.
Welcome to the forum.
What brand is your pedal steel? The way the copedent is, this appears to be a student model setup (standard Emmons), but limited.
The levers raising and lowering the Es would normally raise/lower both Es. Same with the Bs, too. So those changes are missing, also. Either it was changed or did not come with the changes. Can you post a picture of the underside?
Anyway, Wish you well on learning and playing.........Pat
Last edited by Pat Chong on 13 Oct 2016 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:01 pm
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Of course you mean B>>C# on P1.
There is no good reason I can think of for only raising the 4th string to F. Also, only lowering the 4th string to D# is a reverse Lloyd Green, who only lowers his 8th string, using the 2nd string D# when he needs that note. I'd be adding a bellcrank and a pull rod on the 8th string for both the raise and the lower.
If someone can present a logical reason why your setup is an ok idea (or is a particular player's idiosyncratic thing), I'll be most interested. |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:01 pm
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| Thanks, Pat. It's a Sierra Olympic D-10 8x4. |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:02 pm
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| Yes, Jon - good catch. Couldn't read my own handwriting... |
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Pat Chong
From:
New Mexico, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:07 pm
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I do not think there is a beginner D10 model. So it sounds like parts are missing. I believe Sierra is still in business, so parts would be available should you feel up to the repair, or have someone do it.
Best of luck..............Pat. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:09 pm
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I'd suggest to a newbie that the only changes made would be:
Adding an 8th string pull to both LKL and RKL. Doing this will help a lot. Does your guitar have unused bellcranks on the shafts associated with LKL and RKL? It's odd that it lacks those pulls.
If it were my guitar, I'd change things around a bit more.
But I FIRMLY believe that, if a new player's guitar has fairly standard changes (and yours does), learn to play what you have, making changes ONLY after you know what you want to add and why.
If you're along Interstate 70, I'll be happy to take a look at it Saturday.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:09 pm
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| It came with a few loose rods, so I believe it's been modified. There are some bell cranks not being used, if I'm not mistaken, so I'm thinking I might be able to remove and place them elsewhere. Haven't tried any disassembly yet...forming my plan of attack. I added a picture. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 8:19 pm
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Hmmmm. Can anyone familiar with Sierras tell me what Allen wrenches I'll want to bring with me? I might be able to look at it Saturday evening.
If you have extra rods to go with it, we can set you up.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2016 9:41 pm
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The Sierra Olympic is a bit hard to work on. You have to pull crossrods out from the back to add bell cranks. You really do need to add a few.
LKL should raise both E's to F
RKL should lower both E's to D#
RKR should also lower the 9th string D to C#
I own a Sierra Olympic S-12, and it's a beautiful design. Contact Sierra about getting replacements for the leg tightening levers. They came out with an improved part for that model a few years back.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 1:43 am
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Is it hard to remove them, B0b? After all, I like working on MSA Classics.
I see some extra bellcranks on the cross-shafts, but they're mostly on the C6th side of the center rib. I assume I'll have to pull them halfway out to move them to the other side?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 4:45 am Re: Help understanding a copedent?
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| Andrew Wright wrote: |
Basically - I'm trying to figure out if this thing just got messed up by a tinkerer-type or if there's a method to the madness.
Is there any way I'd want to leave it as is rather than just trying (if I can figure out how) to convert it to a more standard Emmons setup?
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Yes, it has definitely been "messed up" by somebody, and you should add the missing changes to make a standard setup. And while you're at it, fix all the C6th pullrods so they aren't pulling at an angle.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 5:25 am
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From the photo, the C6 looks as patchy and mysterious as the E9.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 5:47 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| a new player's guitar has fairly standard changes (and yours does), learn to play what you have, making changes ONLY after you know what you want to add and why. |
Ok from my shallow end of the steel pool, what are standard changes for an E9 with 3 pedals and 5 knees?
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 6:29 am
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OK, Arthur, from my viewpoint, "mostly normal" 3 and 5 would have
A Pedal (both Bs to C#)
B pedal (both G#s to A)
C pedal (4 and 5 up a whole tone)
A knee raising both Es to F/E#
A knee lowering both Es to D#
And 3 of the following:
2 to D, preferably with a half-stop, and continuing on to C# (9 to C# a good idea);
5 to A#, possibly also 10;
1 and 7 to G;
1 and 2 to G# and E, respectively;
1 to G and either 6 to F# or 7 to G#, and;
1 and 2 to G# and E, respectively.
His Sierra has 4 knees: if it were my guitar, I'd allocate the 4 to a different selection of the above changes, but his guitar has an array of 4 incomplete standard changes.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 7:30 am
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Ok Gray, thanks, 
i will Mr.Magoo over at the E9 and see if the guitar was set up that way.
I'm still learning and boy is it a to-do !!!
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Oct 2016 9:27 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Is it hard to remove them, B0b? After all, I like working on MSA Classics.
I see some extra bellcranks on the cross-shafts, but they're mostly on the C6th side of the center rib. I assume I'll have to pull them halfway out to move them to the other side? |
Right. You can pull the rods one at a time to reposition the bell cranks, then re-rod it after they're all in place. As Ian pointed out, the C6th is far from standard too. Best to do them both at the same time, if you can. You'll need Allen wrenches 3/32", 1/8", 9/64" and 5/32". Also, a 1/4 nut driver for tuning (if Andrew doesn't have one).
The good news: All 3 E9th pedals are right. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 2:27 am
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| Thanks all! Sounds like it'll be major surgery. Good news is that I have no clue how to play the C6 (and approximately one clue on E9) so we can steel bell cranks and rods to our hearts content without immediate term consequences... |
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Carl Kilmer
From:
East Central, Illinois
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 3:21 am
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Andrew, are you by chance any where near Terre Haute.
Lane, when will you be at the Marshall, IL. truck stop again.
_________________
aka "Lucky Kay"--Custom built Rittenberry SD10 3X5, Walker S/S, NV-112, and Hilton Pedal |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 3:27 am
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| No, east side of Indy. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 1:14 pm
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Carl, Marshall is a fluke. Knightstown, twenty miles east of Indy, is my turnaround point. I'm going to work on Andrew's guitar in a half hour or so.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 1:24 pm
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| Andrew Wright wrote: |
| Thanks all! Sounds like it'll be major surgery. Good news is that I have no clue how to play the C6 (and approximately one clue on E9) so we can steel bell cranks and rods to our hearts content without immediate term consequences... |
Bellcranks, yes. Sierra rods are threaded at one end and the other end has a hex head.
So you can't move them from one shaft to the other. If the spare rods are the wrong lengths, a new one must be ordered from Jim, or Sierra. Updates to follow
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 5:40 pm
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Update: he had the rods to make LKR pull two strings, so it now lowers both Es.
He didn't have another pullrod for LKL, so it only pulls the high E. If I'd been thinking better, I'd have moved it to 8, as I think if you're only gonna pull one, that might be better.
He didn't have a second RKL pullrod, and his Williams raises 1 and lowers 6. So he went from lowering 5 to lowering 6 (I THINK we put a bellcrank on it, so it's just a matter of installing a rod)
The stop collar on the front apron side of the RKR shaft was seized to the shaft, so we couldn't pull the shaft to give it a bellcrank to lower 9 as well as 2, so it's just lowering 2.
And LKR had slipped to a slightly awkward position, I sorted it out.
I'm impressed with the Sierra. David Wright, your dad built a great guitar.
This one is either rosewood or walnut mica and copper anodized aluminum. A beautiful guitar.
So now it's
LKL: 4 to F
LKR: 4 and 8 to D#
RKL: 6 to F#
RKR: 2 to D.
A few bits of hardware are needed to complete the E9th neck, and a few more for the C6th neck.
PS: the pedal pulls were dang sure screwed down tight.
I don't understand the animosity some feel towards round shaft guitars.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Andrew Wright
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 6:26 pm
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Was great to meet you, and I really do appreciate the tutorial on working on these things! Looking forward to getting this thing the rest of the way right once I get my hands on the missing parts...
Now if I could just find the notes I want on the dumb thing. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Oct 2016 6:38 pm
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I left some licks on it. It's up to you to dig them back out
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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