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Topic: Volume Pot Pedals and Tone Suck |
Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2016 1:20 pm |
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I recently did an a/b test with my two Fender vol/tone pedals. "A" is guitar > pedal (full on) > amp. "B" is guitar > amp. I was shocked...shocked to discover how much fidelity the pedal was robbing from the signal. Without the pedal, the tone was brilliant, clean and clear. With the pedal it was midrangy and muddy. The difference was so profound that I want to throw my pedals in the garbage.
The mud was present with both my vintage pedal and my reissue. I made sure the volume and tone pots were wide open at the bottom of the throw before testing.
Is some degradation of tone unavoidable in all pot pedals? Is there a way to prevent tone suck in a pot pedal or do I have to buy one of the super expensive modern marvels? |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 5 Oct 2016 1:32 pm
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You may want to check to see what value of pot your pedals have. Most steel players like a 500K pot, which is what most vol. pedals designed for pedal steel are outfitted with.
The current line of 500K [actually 470K, sorry] Goodrich replacement pots sound very nice too.
Some pedals come with a 250K pot which makes the sound darker.
I've always had good luck with pot volume pedals and have used them exclusively for nigh on 40 yrs.
I have played through a Hilton pedal though, and they do sound crisp and clean.
Also, if you are not using George L's cables, try them. They will make a big difference with clarity too.
Last edited by Jerry Overstreet on 6 Oct 2016 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Oct 2016 2:52 pm
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If you can find a used Lil' Izzy, they're also great buffers. Sadly, there will be no more.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 12:30 am
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This has always been the case.
Then the pedal industry devised true-bypass switching.
Best way if you want to use pedals is get an amp with an FX loop and put the pedals there.
In fact one rock star who liked his pedals on the floor in front of him, gutted all his pedal circuits, leaving the pedal housing as the switch on the floor where he stands and all the circuits he took out of the pedals were sitting by his amp. 
Otherwise the buffer pedal is the go-to solution. David Gilmour used to record on his boat. His amps were at one end of the boat so to make up for the long cables as he sat at the other end was to use a buffer.
This same idea was used in the Fender Richie Sambora, the Fender Clapton. They had factory installed mid-booster circuits.
The Sambora has a 9vdc booster switch/circuit on the guitar that was designed to make up for the signal loss of going through racks of effects that were popular in the 80-90's.
Other than this you have to finesse your tone and make up for things with other pedals or place your pedals in a different chain assignment.
The value of the volume pot can be changed if you can find them that will fit your pedal.
But basically the nature of the beast, anything in-line starts to change and degrade the signal of your pickup.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Bill Ferguson
From:
Milton, FL USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 3:08 am
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I find that pot pedals do slightly darken my tone, but I actually like that.
The louder I play, I don't want those shrill notes hitting me so hard.
#1: Be sure you have a "high quality" 500K (or 470K) volume pot. A 250K just does not do the trick.
And thank you Jerry Overstreet for the George L's plug. You are right on.
_________________
AUTHORIZED George L's, Goodrich, Telonics and Peavey Dealer: I have 2 steels and several amps. My current rig of choice is 1993 Emmons LeGrande w/ 108 pups (Jack Strayhorn built for me), Goodrich OMNI Volume Pedal, George L's cables, Goodrich Baby Bloomer and Peavey Nashville 112. Can't get much sweeter. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 3:52 am
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As a volume potentiometer in itself does not rob anything from the signal - it only divides the signal so we can control the output level, it is all about how the PU reacts to the change in load with or without the volume pedal in a passive sound-chain up until the first amplifier stage.
With a buffer right after the PU, before anything else, a low ohm (250Kohm or less) VP pot works best because it reduces the effect of cable capacitance all the way to the amplifier.
Without a buffer right after the PU, a high ohm (500K or more) VP pot works best because it puts less load on the PU, but then the cable capacitance plays more of a role, so the better (lowest capacitance) cable ensures the best signal.
I prefer to have a buffer-amp (>=1Mohm in / <=5Kohm out) right after the PU, followed by a VP with a 50K pot. Then neither the VP pot nor the cable capacitance (whatever it happens to be) cause any noticeable loss of signal quality. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 9:06 am
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Thanks for the feedback fellers. I ordered a Dunlop 470k pot and will try that first. I can live with a slight loss of tone (mainly top end) but right now I'm also losing a lot of volume. My amp is twice as loud without the volume pedal.
Based on the comments about buffers, I tried an experiment. I inserted a 7 band eq pedal between my steel guitar and the vol/tone pedal. Sure enough it cleaned the signal right up and restored much of the lost fidelity. Oddly, it also defeats the tone circuit in the pedal. The side to side tone control does nothing with the buffer in play.
I'm going to see how the Dunlop pot works. If I still have tone suck issues I will get a real buffer and just use the guitar's tone control to get my doo-wahs. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 10:16 am
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| Has anyone here ever tried adding a treble bleed capacitor to a passive VP? Yes, obviously not as effective as a buffer, but it's a fairly common mod in guitar volume circuits to address the same issue. Just curious |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 11:39 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
As a volume potentiometer in itself does not rob anything from the signal - it only divides the signal so we can control the output level, it is all about how the PU reacts to the change in load with or without the volume pedal in a passive sound-chain up until the first amplifier stage.
With a buffer right after the PU, before anything else, a low ohm (250Kohm or less) VP pot works best because it reduces the effect of cable capacitance all the way to the amplifier.
Without a buffer right after the PU, a high ohm (500K or more) VP pot works best because it puts less load on the PU, but then the cable capacitance plays more of a role, so the better (lowest capacitance) cable ensures the best signal.
I prefer to have a buffer-amp (>=1Mohm in / <=5Kohm out) right after the PU, followed by a VP with a 50K pot. Then neither the VP pot nor the cable capacitance (whatever it happens to be) cause any noticeable loss of signal quality. |
Excellent info, very well stated.
B |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 11:59 am
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There is a wealth of information here. I bought a Hilton. I costed the time and money I'd likely spend trying all the other solutions and decided it was cheap. Now I don't have to think about any of this stuff ever again 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 12:04 pm
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The Fender volume/tone pedal causes a lot more signal degradation than the standard Fender volume pedal. Also, if there's a big difference in volume (with and without the pedal), then there may be a 250k pot in there.
(Keep in mind that some early steels that had tone controls also had "tone bypass" switches...to reduce the high frequency degradation caused by that tone pot.)
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 2:21 pm
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| Tim Whitlock wrote: |
. My amp is twice as loud without the volume pedal.
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The pedal can either give you full shutoff or full volume
This is by design, so that you can't blow past the internal stops in the pot. Loosen the string, hold the pedal in its wide open position, rotate the pot shaft to full open, and lock down the string.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bob Tuttle
From:
Republic, MO 65738
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Posted 6 Oct 2016 7:10 pm
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| The Fender volume/tone pedals had 250K pots. I used one for about 20 years and replaced the pots a couple of times when you could still buy the original Ohmite, type AB pots for about $3.95. Needless to say, that was a while back. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 8 Oct 2016 9:48 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
The pedal can either give you full shutoff or full volume. |
Set the pedal fo full off. The tiny bit of peak volume you lose (and it really is a tiny bit) is of absolutely no consequence when you're actually playing. As a matter of fact, if you keep the amp volume cranked up, you will seldom (or never) have to floor the pedal to get all the volume you'll ever need. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2016 10:40 am
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I tend to keep the pot adjusted for maximum volume when the pedal is floored. One of the main reasons for the vol/tone pedal is so you can get those Speedy West doo-wahs and they come out better if you have a little gain.
I did discover that my vintage pedal has an Ernie Ball 250k pot. I ordered a 470k Dunlop from Tom Bradshaw that I think will do the trick. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2016 11:09 am
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I have an Ernie Ball pedal that came with a 250k pot. It was horrible. I replaced the pot with one of Tom's (Dunlop) 470k pots and now it sounds as good as my Goodrich.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2016 11:34 pm
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| I also noticed that when using my 'Izzy', the tone sweep was not effective.. I asked Craig Baker about it when (get this!), HE called ME a week or so after I bought it, to ask how it was working for me! What a great guy! He didn't have an immediate answer for me, so maybe one of you guys could explain it? Thanks! |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 3:42 am
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| Dave Meis wrote: |
| I also noticed that when using my 'Izzy', the tone sweep was not effective. |
A passive tone control (unlike an active one) is in essense a "variable load" tuned to add and/or release load in a "high pass", "low pass" or "band pass" configuration. A passive tone control can only add or release load with any degree of efficiency on a (relative speaking) high impedance source, which is what a passive PU is.
The low impedance output of an active buffer is more or less insensitive to load changes - that is actually one of its main purposes. So variable and frequency dependent load put on a buffer by a passive tone control will have minimal effect.
Since not all active buffers are made equal - some has output impedance as high as 10Kohm while others have output impedance as low as 1Kohm and some even lower, some active buffers - those with the lowest output impedance - will literally "overrun" a passive tone control as if it wasn't there at all. |
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Dave Meis
From:
Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 8:56 am
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| Thank you, Georg! I'm hearing: The tone pot is looking for impedance, but there's not any. Is that close? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 10:26 am
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| Dave Meis wrote: |
| Thank you, Georg! I'm hearing: The tone pot is looking for impedance, but there's not any. Is that close? |
Naa, well ... maybe
The tone pot is "looking for" a source (circuit) that it can load / choke the output of.
To expand a little more on the subject...
A regular (passive) PU is very easy to load / choke because of its high impedance = very low output power. Even a 250Kohm volume pot can cause audible "tone-suck"on a PU made for steel guitar, so just imagine what a "dedicated tone-suck circuit" - which is what a passive tone control is - can do.
An active buffer presents the PU with a very light and constant load, and present circuits after itself with a lower impedance = higher output power. Most active buffers can drive volume pots with values as low as 22Kohm without audible losses, so even the "most dedicated tone-suck circuit" cannot load the buffer hard enough to cause much of a tone-suck. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 11:07 am
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I detect no noticeable tone suck with either me 50's Fender or 60's BMI (Beck) pedals.
Some define "tone suck" differently - are you losing highs, detecting an overall muddiness or not able to get full volume?
I know some recommend buffers but usefulness depends on the problem - and they're not cheap solutions. If it's a full-volume issue get (or have a tech make) a "no-load" pot that completely bypasses the top of the travel. Inexpensive, quick solution.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 12:04 pm
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As an experiment, I hooked up an old Ernie Ball pedal to my rig, and the tone lost it's brightness and became fairly dull. But I turned on the bright boost on the amp (a Quilter Steelaire) and the tone was restored to something akin to what it is when I use the Telonics pedal.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Oct 2016 12:38 pm
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A few facts, and some thoughts...
What any one player experiences with regard to "tone-suck" (or not) with passive components in the sound-chain, is only true for that player's exact set-up. Without replicating other players' exact setups one cannot replicate their results.
PUs vary greatly in measurable impedance, and even more in how their coil-windings interact and react to load. Nearly all PUs lose some highs if loaded hard enough, but what else they "sound" like differ greatly. Some PUs can for instance be brought close to self-oscilation with the right passive load, while others go "mushy" or sound "dead" with the exact same load.
The load that the PU will interact with, includes all passive components all the way up to, and including, the first active stage.
If I want a different sound out of one of my PSGs, I change how the existing PU is loader rather than change to another PU. Needless to say that a regular volume/tone pedal, or a variable-load buffer, won't cut it when it comes to tailoring the load for a given sound out of a given PU. |
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