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Topic: Which PSG make/model was the game changer |
Gary Hoetker
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 8:42 am |
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| for country music and why ?? Will appreciate your comments. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 9:21 am
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Thats a loaded question with no real answer.. the first "real" "traditional" use of pedals was attributed to Slowly by Webb Pierce with Bud Isaacs on steel.. Thats considered the beginning of traditional "country pedal steel".That was done on a Bigsby I believe. However, there were hits just as big or bigger done on other steels.. There has never been a bigger country hit than than
Together Again by Buck Owens.. just a huge hit.. Played by Tom Brumley on a Fender cable job that was barely functional from what I have read,, So, there, another game changer.. Lots of big hits early on played o Sho buds, and Emmons as well.. Later on every other brand most likely.. They were all game changers really, but if you are looking for the "sound" that really changed the perception of what "country steel" should sound like, it really was Bud Isaacs and his Bigsby on slowly.. That sent all the "inline" steel players off scurrying to find that "pedaled into" effect we all find so very intriguing.. bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 9:36 am
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
Thats a loaded question with no real answer.. the first "real" "traditional" use of pedals was attributed to Slowly by Webb Pierce with Bud Isaacs on steel.. Thats considered the beginning of traditional "country pedal steel".That was done on a Bigsby I believe. However, there were hits just as big or bigger done on other steels.. There has never been a bigger country hit than than
Together Again by Buck Owens.. just a huge hit.. Played by Tom Brumley on a Fender cable job that was barely functional from what I have read,, So, there, another game changer.. Lots of big hits early on played o Sho buds, and Emmons as well.. Later on every other brand most likely.. They were all game changers really, but if you are looking for the "sound" that really changed the perception of what "country steel" should sound like, it really was Bud Isaacs and his Bigsby on slowly.. That sent all the "inline" steel players off scurrying to find that "pedaled into" effect we all find so very intriguing.. bob |
"Slowly" was definitely played on a Bigsby. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 11:10 am
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Not sure I understand the question, are we asking about which brand of Steel and NEW developments or songs played on a Pedal Steel ?
Because we can play Slowly and Together Again exactly the same on a Carter Starter and a Franklin.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 11:50 am
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Will they sound the same?  |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 12:01 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
Not sure I understand the question, are we asking about which brand of Steel and NEW developments or songs played on a Pedal Steel ?
Because we can play Slowly and Together Again exactly the same on a Carter Starter and a Franklin. |
I think Bob's answer was adequate to the question... though it was fairly indirect.
If I were to paraphrase what he said, it would be:
"Pedals were the game-changer, not a specific brand... Although, the 'breakthrough' recording to prominently feature pedal action was done on a Bigsby". |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Hermitage, TN
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 12:12 pm
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| If Alvino Rey had pedals on his guitar as far back as the late 30's I wonder why it took Nashville so long to catch up. I guess the music created the demand, and Sho-Bud was there to facilitate the boom. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 1:38 pm
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| Brett Lanier wrote: |
| If Alvino Rey had pedals on his guitar as far back as the late 30's I wonder why it took Nashville so long to catch up. |
I'll take a crack at that one. I think pedals were first envisioned to get many chords or tunings on one neck. The drive for pedals, early on (like the drive for different tunings on multi-neck guitars) was getting non-major chords, 7ths, 9ths, diminished, and augmenteds. The simple inverting of major chords for a different sound probably took place in country music because it happened to be the biggest genre at that time that used major chords almost exclusively. Of course, there's also the idea that changing from one major chord to another is far more attention-getting than going to a variation of the same chord, like major-to-seventh, or major-to-minor.
Last edited by Donny Hinson on 26 Sep 2016 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 1:41 pm
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Lloyd Green's "lightening bolt" Sho~bud Fingertip.
Reason why? Go to the Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville, see and learn about it in person and you'll know.
The Story Behind Lloyd Green's Steel Guitar>
https://youtu.be/DJcM2ZuB-j8
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 5:31 pm
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There were lots of different sounds at different times--the 70s country rock sound (think Buddy Cage) The traditional honky-tonk sound (think early Loretta or Tammy)the contemporary aluminum neck/delay sound (think Paul)the Bakersfield sound (Tom)
I don't think there was any one particular sound that defined steel, but I think the popularity rose with the 60-70s country rock era. For that we gotta thank guys like Buddy Cage, John Call, Sneaky Pete, Rusty Young, & Neil Flanz. And I think the majority of those sounds were played on Buds & PPs.
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A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 6:12 pm
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The "game changer" was the Bigsby used on Slowly ,played by Bud Isaacs.. There's really no debate if you want to follow the OP's question to the letter.. Before Bud used the now common everyday I-IV changes that are PEDALED into, there was NOTHING comparable.. There was great straight non pedal playing, but THIS song on THAT steel guitar was the prototype.. Read up on it.. the best players of the day were desperately trying to emulate this totally new and innovative sound.. They learned quickly it could only be done with the use of pedals, and the race was on.. A LOT of classic steels got holes drilled in them, and various mechanisms started pulling and stretching strings.. Some were a success, others were simply the ruination of a perfectly good steel guitar... You can make every argument that other guitars were far more widely heard, were on more hits, etc, but Bud's Bigsby pedal guitar and his playing on the Webb Pierce classic was the prototype for the modern pedal steel sound, and it totally changed the country steel guitar sound forever really. It remains the game changer for those of us that have heard it, and know something of the history of steel guitar usage before and after... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 6:51 pm
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Hey Bob, Not to stir the pot on this more than it should be but you sound 100% sure that Bud played a Bigsby on Slowly?? I do not know. I think I have read something about he had some kind of home made contraction on his steel and soon after the recording he got the Bigsby. Can you give me some info I can look into. Do you also know what year it was? I think it was 1956 maybe. Thank You, J.R. Rose
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NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2016 6:53 pm
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I totally of course agree with the Bigsby being played on Slowly and played on radio; made the Pedal steel guitar the DEFINING instrument with Country Music.
All others after that; continued to define country music with many many great recordings with their pedal steel guitars.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 3:39 am
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...And, to the best of my knowledge the industry standard for 'Country' steel playing right up until the point of "Slowly" can best be demonstrated by listening to Don Helms playing non-pedal with Hank Williams.
That should serve as a good cross-check to prove the turning point. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 5:59 am
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| J R Rose wrote: |
| Hey Bob, Not to stir the pot on this more than it should be but you sound 100% sure that Bud played a Bigsby on Slowly?? I do not know. I think I have read something about he had some kind of home made contraction on his steel and soon after the recording he got the Bigsby. Can you give me some info I can look into. Do you also know what year it was? I think it was 1956 maybe. Thank You, J.R. Rose |
Here ya go...
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22152-pedal-to-the-metal-a-short-history-of-the-pedal-steel-guitar?page=2
http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/gibson-electric-steel-406.aspx
Just do the following search...
Bud Isaacs Bigsby pedal steel guitar...
There are several other articles stating they Bud used his Bigsby on Slowly.
There were other pedal steel guitar around, but they were generally meant as alternative tuning mechanisms, not really meant for single or dual string bends the way we now think of a pedal steel... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 6:06 am
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| Jeff Harbour wrote: |
...And, to the best of my knowledge the industry standard for 'Country' steel playing right up until the point of "Slowly" can best be demonstrated by listening to Don Helms playing non-pedal with Hank Williams.
That should serve as a good cross-check to prove the turning point. |
Exactly.. While that was indeed wonderful playing, and totally appropriate for the music, it was evident early on that pedal guitars had a voice, an expression, and a "feel" that was more emotional and more an extension of the player's soul than could be produced with non pedal.. At least thats my simple take on it.... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 7:06 am
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Kayton or Jerry Byrd were VERY good at wringing emotion out of a lap steel.
The two are almost completely different animals.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 8:25 am
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| There have been more than one "game changer." I think the precision engineering and production of the MSA Micro guitars raised the bar. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 8:58 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Kayton or Jerry Byrd were VERY good at wringing emotion out of a lap steel.
The two are almost completely different animals. |
Completely different for sure, which further illustrates the 'game-change'.
It's interesting to me that when I hear the direction Country music was heading around 1950 or 1951, you can almost hear that those steel players were pushing the limits of 'smooth' further and further. At that point it's almost like pedal playing was just meant to happen.
I have so much respect for those guys... Non-Pedal is MUCH harder to master. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 1:36 pm
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| Rich Peterson wrote: |
| There have been more than one "game changer." I think the precision engineering and production of the MSA Micro guitars raised the bar. |
I agree 100% about the MSA guitars.. To me that was the prototype design for precision pedal steel mechanicals.. It still works as well as anything ever built.. However that wasn't the question asked by the OP... The Bigsby was really the first reasonably operable pedal steel design , as indicated by the fact that players were lining up, paying through the nose and waiting for years to get thier mitts one one, and Bud Isaacs on Slowly was really the first recording in which the PEDAL steel was used in the manner we are all familiar with today... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 3:46 pm
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Yes, MSA absolutely raised the bar with the Classic series. Prior to that, the main 3 or four brands (Sho-Bud, Emmons, ZB, Fender) were very different from each other. Today almost all steels bear some resemblance to the classic MSA.
Definitely a game changer in the way steels were designed and built. |
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J R Rose
From:
Keota, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2016 7:00 pm
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Thanks very much Bob for your information. Just what i needed. J.R. Rose
_________________
NOTHING..Sold it all. J.R. Rose |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2016 2:29 am
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All good information here. I think the consensus is as follows:
*For Country Music, the turning point was Pedals and the Bigsby guitar.
*With the later addition of Knee Levers and the engineering of the original MSA, steel guitar was finally in the realm of endless possibilities and genres... including the most complex forms of jazz. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2016 5:57 pm
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Jeff, the turning point was not pedals and the Bigsby guitar. There were Bigsbys with pedals several years before Bud Isaacs' Bigsby, which is I recall, was a 1952. Speedy West, for example, had pedals on his February 7, 1948 Bigsby.
Bud Isaacs using the pedals in the old way to get the I-IV change in 1954 was the game changer. Old way means one pedal raises strings 3 and 5. The other pedal raises strings 6 and 10, except to confuse things more there were no chromatics so no strings 1 and 2, so string 10 was really string 8 on an 8 string neck.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2016 7:00 am
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Chris,
I read that Buddy Emmons was experimenting around with the chromatic strings and he first had them as strings 9 & 10 on his guitar. I think he cut a record with Little Jimmy Dickens that way. Later on he moved them to strings 1 & 2. |
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