Breaking 3rd string when restringing keyless

Scott McRee · From: Georgia, USA

I keep breaking the third string when I restring it on my keyless guitar. Can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong or any tips. I've tried wrapping it twice and even three times around the screw.

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

what guitar are you referring to?....thanks jack

Bob Littleton · From: Camas, WA

If you are referring to a Kline all it needs is a single wrap around the screw and you are good to go. I suspect bad .011 string? My Kline hardly ever breaks a string.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Scott, wrapping multiple times is causing the string to cut itself! Only wrap once. Not know what type of keyless fingers you have, basically speaking, it is not the screw that holds the tension of the string, it is the bends in the string,,, the screw only holds the end, not much tension there at all,,,,like taking a turn on a cleat to hold a large boat,,,or a turn around a post to hold a large animal on the end of a rope.

If it's a Kline,,,through the hole, up around the screw (clockwise),,,,snug the screw down (not too tight,,,just snug),,a couple of quick twist to snap off the end of the string,,,,pull it up to pitch and DONE!

Scott McRee · From: Georgia, USA

Thank you guys for the replies and all of the help, it is a Lamar steel guitar and it has normal set screws I will try just wrapping it once. How much tension do I have to hand pull on the string?

Scott McRee · From: Georgia, USA

Thank you guys for the replies and all of the help, it is a Lamar steel guitar and it has normal set screws I will try just wrapping it once. How much tension do I have to hand pull on the string?

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

You didn't say where the strings are breaking

Markus Mayerhofer · From: Vienna, Austria

Got the same problem on my Sierra Keyless too. Changing the 3rd string is a kind of special challenge...
The ratio of the tuning screw is rather low, so i have to pull the string rather close to the intended pitch, which means, holding it on a high tension while fixing the locking screw. The main issue is cutting the string with the sharp edged thread of the locking screw while fixing it....
I watched Joe Wright's instruction video on the Sierra Homepage several times, but i can't do it in almost twice the time...
http://sierrasteels.com/support/support-tips.html

This procedure is really smooth and effortless on my GFI Keyless...

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

oooops,,,,Lamars are a different story. While I've owned a couple of Lamars, think they are a masterpiece in craftsmanship, think the world of Lamar Colvin, think the keyless tuning mechanism is very clean looking,,,,that being said,,,it does NOT have the "bends" that play a huge part of holding the tension of the string. The best I remember the string comes over the roller, ties to a set screw in a block that is then pushed down by a hidden adjusting screw. That direct hook up is like trying to hold one end of a rope from the dock holding a large boat,,,if there was something to wrap the rope around it would be much easier to hold.

Still, just wrap one time,,,if the string overlaps itself it will cut itself.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Tune the string to a lower note, wait a while, raise is a little, wait a while, repeat...
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Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

Lane and Sonny are right, that pesky 3rd string needs some sort of bend in the string before it gets cinched. I had Lamar build me a beautiful S10 and I had this problem too....In designing my own pedal steel changer and tuner (the tuner was largely influenced by Lamar's design), I made myself a fatigue testing machine to help me figure out why that damn 3 string is so susceptible to breakage....Tuned at G# that little sucker leads a hard life as its already right up there near its mechanical limits for tension, stretch it to A and it's even worse...throw in a 25"scale (like my Lamar and Markus' Sierra) and the problem gets worse.

Like Sonny, I'm a huge fan of Lamar's work, but his tuner design can be improved to greatly reduce string breakage. A caveat here: I only ever broke strings (and lots of 'em!) when restringing....never had one break while playing.

I decided to sell my Lamar a few months ago, but couldn't do so without coming up with a solution for that &^%$ing 3rd string tuner. I've attached a pic of my mod to this part. I made the mod, loaded a string and it worked perfectly the first time with no breakage....I'd never put on a new 3rd string without going through and breaking at least 4 strings first...(once I went through 8!). Bring it up to tension slowly (even over hours of time...not real practical) had no positive effect at all.

That little pin has to have a very tight press fit. Good luck!

Scott McRee · From: Georgia, USA

I'm still having no luck. Just broke 3 more strings. Can someone put a step by step process up please? How do you pull the string to tension while tightening the bolt down? Also, when you say it needs a bend before its tightened down, how do I achieve that? Do I just bend it in a random spot or do I pull it tight, bend it, then tighten it? Also, what does that mod do and how do I build it and use it? Thanks for all of the help. The guitar is gorgeous and sounds just as good, I just have to get the 3rd string restrung

Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

Take the tuner out and take it to a machine shop and show them the picture I posted and have them drill and ream the tuning finger to accept a small pin. You don't bend the string yourself, it bends around the little pin when you pretension it. This helps take stress away from where the bolt head is securing (squishing) the string.

For easier pretensioning, wrap the string around a dowel of some sort and pull it as tight as possible before tightening the hold down screw. This is what Sierra suggests for their guitars as well.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I owned one of Lamar's keyless guitars. I never experienced the issue you are having. I used a tuning wrench with a hole drilled through it to pull the string tight....you could use a wooden or aluminum dowel drilled the same way.

Pull the string tight, and wrap around the screw, just a loop or 180 degrees. Tighten down good and snug but not overtight. Leave your pulling tool on the string for now. Tune up. If that doesn't give you enough travel, loosen set screw and retighten.

If the strings are breaking when you try to tune to pitch, you may have a bad batch of strings. If the strings are breaking at the lockdown screw, you are probably cutting them into on the screw threads.

Your best bet is to call Lamar Colvin with your issue. He is a forumite and his contact info is listed in the mfg. links section. He is the one that can give you the proper advice.

Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

Jerry, did your Lamar have a 25" scale? I did call Lamar when I first discovered this on my rig and he didn't have any tips for me and said he'd never had the problem either. I assure you my problem was not bad strings.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

No, mine was a standard scale. 24 or 24 1/4, whichever he used....I don't recall. I'm not doubting you, just recounting the procedures I used as far as I remember....on all my keyless Williams and Sierras too.

I agree, the 3rd string is the biggest problem to re-string, but one must use caution in pulling the string against the screw threads.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

The "trick" to the Lamar and the Sierra is to:

1. make your wrap (clock wise)just below the head of the cap screw. The wrap is NOT all the way around the screw...just around the back of the screw. By wrapping the string just under the cap/head...as you turn the screw it aids in pulling the string up to pitch.
2. As you turn the cap screw down (clock wise)continue to pull the string toward you.
3. Once you have the cap screw tightened down, bring your string up to pitch using the tuning adjustment.

I currently have three Sierra keyless and have owned a custom built Lamar keyless. Until I learned how to wrap the string I to broke many strings; not any more!

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

That's what I meant about wrapping a loop or 180 degrees. Also, just loosen the lockdown screw enough for the string to pass under the screw head. Too much, and you can cut the string on the screw's threads.

Tom Campbell · From: Houston, Texas, USA

The string is strongest on the first attempt...the screw threads normally won't break the string on the 1st attempt. It's the second or third attempt, with the same string, that will usually fail.

As you tighten the screw down, the revolving screw threads move the string downward. At this point the treads are your "friend". Keep constant tension on the string, but don't try to lift the guitar off the floor with the string!!!

You don't mention where you are positioned when pulling the string...I hope your not seated behind the guitar.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

As far as I can judge from the photos that appear from time to time, a lot of keyless tuners not only seem complicated, but also seem to pull directly on the string.

My first consideration when I built mine was simplicity, as my tools are limited; so I built what is really a half-scale pull-release changer.

It is kind to the string, which is in contact with the finger for 90 degrees before it passes the pin and arrives under the washer and screw. Nowhere is it pinched or bent sharply. Two years on and several changes of strings later, I can report no breakages and stable tuning. The mechanical advantage of the tuning screws over the string tension is about 5:1 which makes for a light and sensitive feel.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

The "bend" is to create friction. Let me present this scenario,,, Say, if you were a cowboy,,and roped a 1000 lb animal,,,whoaaaa,,,that animal is going to drag you over h$&& and half of Georgia,,,,,but, if you found a tree,,or post or something to wrap that rope around,,JUST 1 TIME,,,you could easily hold your end of the rope,,,while the animal struggled on the other end. Just a bit of south Texas wisdom,,,,LOL.

On a Kline,,,and also the type of fingers I use on my keyless lap steels, the string goes over the nut, bends down slightly, through a hole, bends back up sharply and makes a half turn around the hold down screw. The screw is really more of a "hold down the end of the string" screw,,,holds very little tension. I have even forgotten to back off the tuning screw before loosing the hold down screw with very little detuning.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Hi, Scott,
Have you solved the problem of string 3 breakage when restringing string 3. If so, what seems to work? Thanks. Stevet

Scott McRee · From: Georgia, USA

I haven't tried much more because I'm selling it. It has nothing to do with guitar. I just don't know how to restring a keyless

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Scott,
I understand you don't' know how to string a keyless, particularly the Lamar, which is why you asked for members' input.

Of the suggestions given above, which have you tried and what were the results? Thanks, Stevet

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Ross , or any other members reading this thread, whom would you suggest could do that "pin" addition - modification that Ross Shafer discusses and shows a photo of above?

Thanks Stevet

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