searching for "the tone" on my Fender 400

Eugene Kindle · From: Illinois, USA

After my rebuild (Tom Bradshaw P/U, new vol & tone pots), I am not satisfied with the 'voice'. Is there anything I can add to allow me to vary the voice, similar to an equalizer between the volume pedal & amplifier? I've tried adjusting tone pots on amp, pedal, and PSG, but bass strings just get "muddier' and high ones get 'tinnyier'. Not being up on all add-ons, I'm looking for experienced help. Anybody?

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

You might try a 'Li'l Izzy' (Craig Baker Electronics'). That tiny blue box can perform wonders on enhancing the tone of your guitar, particularly if you are using a volume pedal with a pot! Plugs directly into the output jack on the steel.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Serious question: is your discontent because the steel sounds not enough like the Fender steel sound in your head or because it sounds too much like a Fender steel?
I have heard some Fender players who could make the steel sound more mainstream than I thought a Fender could sound but they are exceptions. Fender pedal steels have a very distinct voice.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Is it a long scale or short scale 400? What is the Tom Bradshaw PU?

I have a bunch of Fenders. Even though I'm a tube amp snob I find them to work better with solid state, and they're easier to eq. Also I had someone make me a pickup for my long scale 400 and it mellowed the guitar out a bit in a good way. I know a few guys that added an extra coil to their guitars and wired them like a string master and they sound great. Fenders are a different animal, you can't expect them to behave like modern guitars. That's what I love about them. Here's a sample of my Fenders through a Quilter Mach II. Even though it's only an iPhone recording I like to take videos and A/B them on my computer.

400 with a replacement pickup built by Jerry Sentell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ9aSO2SUDE

800 with stock Jaguar pickups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2xXrGyDaN0

I prefer the replacement pickup...
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Tom Wolverton · From: Carpinteria, CA

I used a Sarno Freeloader to give me tone adjustments on my Fender 400.
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To write with a broken pencil is pointless.

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

What Jon Light said.
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Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I play Fender 400's with stock pickups, a stock bridge pickup and Jerry Sentell P-90 neck pickup, and one with two Lace ALumitone P-90's under stock covers.

Obviously all mine are modified for two pickups, which makes huge difference in the clarity and overall tone. I use both 250k and 500k volume and tone pots (doesn't make much difference, and I like the slope better than the 1 meg pots), a .068 tone cap for a wider sweep, and a pickup blend pot instead of a switch - a real key component.

I've also had both long and short scale single-pickup guitars, and never had any problems with clarity or tonal range....except wth modern solid state amps, where the tone just evaporated into mud no matter what I tried.

So I stick with my 15-35 watt tube amps and there's no problem.

Is the Bradshaw pickup overwound...i.e. hotter....and have DC resistance above 8k ohms? Lower-output pickups with DC resistance in the 6.5-8k ohm range have far more clarity, string definition and control over picking dynamics. The hotter they get and the higher the DC resistance the tougher it is to control the tone. They often have a ton of treble but conversely lack clarity and focus.

What values are the new pots - and what type? If they are not standard audio pots they can react very strangely. Have you checked the wiring to ensure everything is hooked up correctly? It's not difficult to wire the tone cap wrong and foul the circuit, turning into a "mud" and "more mud" control.

I'd look at the pickup first...but also test tit with different types of amps. Many pickups just don't play well with certain amp circuits.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Eugene Kindle · From: Illinois, USA

Thanx to all the replies. I should have explained... even though I've been pickin' at it for most of my 77 years, I have never had any pro instructions and am fairly ignorant about things you all mentioned. My 400 is 1960's sunburst model, four foot pedals, and original P/U made a bad hum, so when I decided to resurrect the ol' "doughboard" to play in the church band, and after the rebuild I found the 'voice' to be not what I hoped, I have turned to the Forum. I also use a Fender volume/tone pedal which I have also rebuilt. I will digest what you all have offered & see what happens. Again I thank you for your help. (I may be back)
PS: I spent a lifetime in military electronics so I know the basics & can do the builds okay.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

In that case the first thing you should check is the pickup. If you have the specs for it, great, but at least check the DC resistance. If it's very high (over 10K or so on a Fender 400) chances are it'll have been wound for string treble...which can be very "icepicky"...or a "full" sound, which can go to mud in many cases.

The things to post here that would help are:

Pickup resistance (note - higher resistance does NOT always mean higher output, which is a mistaken assumption you may read)

Potentiometer values

Tone cap value

IF you can, a schematic or sketch of the wiring would be helpful. IF the cap is wired wrong - which is very common - it can really screw up the sound.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Dave, wonderful tone on both those Fenders. Ideal for my ears. Bravo.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Eugene, it's still not clear what you mean by "rebuild" as far as a pickup and pots are concerned - a "rebuild" is usually mechanical in nature. We've asked some questions but the answers still aren't clear.

The "Add ons" your asking about are likely irrelevant - if you are currently experiencing muddy and tinny tones it sounds like there's either something "off" about the pickup or the circuit is wired incorrectly.

The tone control IS a simple equalizer, and an EQ that boosts certain frequencies will be of NO help if your basic tone isn't good - they're designed to "enhance" - not "fix" tone. "Fixing" tone problems boils down to the basic components you already have.

Details needed to give you good advice:

First: I the guitar a "long scale" - with a rectangular, flat pickup - or a short scale - with a pickup rounded on the ends like a Fender guitar pickup (a long scale will also have chrome stamped pedals and the short scale black cast ones ones 99% of the time). The two guitars are a bit similar but pickups can be exponentially different because of the nature of the construction.

What is the "Bradshaw pickup"? Was it repaired by Tom Bradshaw, or rewound by him, or made by him...and in whichever case, what is the DC resistance of the coil? Do you have any other details about it?

What are the potentiometer values?

What is the tone capacitor value?

Who did the "rebuild", what did it consist of - and can you sketch out the wiring diagram? It should be VERY simple - if fact, you could probably describe in words exactly where the cap, pickup, pots and jacks are connected to what.

This isn't stuff you can dig up in a military electronics manual. These are passive circuits and have their own way of reacting to unusual connections or errors in wiring. My electronics study was helpful in amplifier work, but relatively useless when it came to guitar wiring except for switch operations (not applicable here).

So far we actually haven't given you any practical stuff to work with as we need the basic information to do so. So please don't leave and come back at some future time after trying to figure it out - we can help if you simply give us the basic info to work from.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

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