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Topic: Tuning -- what am I missing? |
Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 9:24 am |
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I tune my E9 pedal steel straight up, using a ordinary guitar tuner. And it sounds fine to me. And I do have a good ear for in tune vs. out of tune.
I know a lot of you use "sweetened" tunings, or whatever you call them (tempered?), with fancy pedal steel tuners.
What am I missing? |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 10:36 am
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Nothing if you feel its correct.
I used to tune my Pedal Steel straight up ("0") for all strings. Everyone told me I was out of tune. I started using the Jeff Newman tuning and no one ever told me I was out of tune after that. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 11:12 am
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It sounds fine because you're used to ET.
I say work with that. You'll be happier.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 2:49 pm
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I would do as Lane says until someone passes comment, then do as Jack says. It's mostly a matter of lowering the thirds a bit - G#s, C#s, D#s etc. Even-tempered fifths are very close to natural ones and sound O.K., but the thirds are very bright/harsh/brittle (pick an adjective) - "sweetening" amounts to flattening.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Pat Moore
From:
Virginia USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 3:22 pm Tuning
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Hi Tommy,
I had always been using straight up A-440, and had tried the flat G#'s etc. which did help some, but there always seemed to be a dissonance between the 3rd & 4th strings. Also, when I'd use the LKL & A pedal, it would be slightly out of tune. Being a longtime tele player, I did know about the slight flattening of the G string on a 6 string guitar, so that the G# on the 3rd string wouldn't be sharp when you made an E chord on it. I was very hesitant about the "sweetened" stuff.
Just about 2 weeks ago, after talking with several player friends who used it, I finally went ahead and re-tuned with the Jeff Newman newer tuning. Man, what a great difference. It took care of all the tuning issues I was dealing with, and now is a real pleasure to play, as I don't hear the dissonance anymore, and can concentrate on playing instead of hearing tuning issues.
FWIW, Get the Petersen HD tuner. It's well worth the money!
This WILL make a big difference. BTW, I have a real good ear for tuning as well.
Good luck, Pat 
Last edited by Pat Moore on 13 Aug 2016 4:23 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 3:24 pm
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Here's a brief experiment, to show you what happens with the "sweetened" tunings:
On your tuner, tune everything to 0/straight up, EXCEPT for the following notes, which you'll tune just 4-6 cents flat: G#, A# (if you lower your Bs), C#, D# and E#/F.
This is the compromise I hit on, somewhere between ET and JI. It's easy to remember and doesn't require craziness like 30cents flat Fs.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 4:33 pm
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That will work. I like the sound of just intonation (natural intervals) because of my trombone-playing past, and my guitar holds its tuning well. But if a third does fall even slightly flat of that exact 5:4 ratio, the ear really can't tolerate it, so I tune my thirds just a hair sharp for safety.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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James Jacoby
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2016 11:30 pm Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| Tommy Boswell wrote: |
I tune my E9 pedal steel straight up, using a ordinary guitar tuner. And it sounds fine to me. And I do have a good ear for in tune vs. out of tune.
I know a lot of you use "sweetened" tunings, or whatever you call them (tempered?), with fancy pedal steel tuners.
What am I missing? |
I've tried tempered tuning 3 times. I always ended up going back to 440. Just didn't sound right. When anyone else plays my steel, they always messed with the tuning, and when they're done, I have to tune it back to 440.(this includes levers, and pedals.)No one, in 15 years, has ever said I play out of tune. When they re-tune my steel,and play, they don't sound out of tune either. I don't know why, this happens this way, but I like it, because it's a lot easier to tune up, and I use a small Korg chromatic tuner, which I like a lot. I have a decent ear, and I also play lead 6 string guitar, and 6 string bass. I'm 77 years old, and have been around the block, a few times. -Jake- |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 6:27 am
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It is likely because of the music I play, but I've had exact opposite experience - started with just intonation, was told how out of tune I was (heard it in recordings too), went to ET 440 and haven't had a problem, other than a bad night... Who knows, you have to work with what works for you
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 7:21 am Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| James Jacoby wrote: |
| I've tried tempered tuning 3 times. I always ended up going back to 440. |
Just to get the terms right: "440" = "straight up" = "tuning all to zero" = "ET" = "Equally Tempered" ... are all the same, and is the most tempered tuning there is.
- "ET" obviously sounds as much in tune and out of tune in any key, and is the only way to tune a number of instruments to sound equally well (or bad) together in any key.
- No problem playing an "ET" tuned PSG in tune with other instruments, but because (especially E9 tuned) PSGs produce very sinusoidal single-note tones they will tend to sound out of tune with themselves for full chords to most people - especially those who prefer "beat-free" intervals.
"JI" = "Just Intonation" = "natural scale" = "beat-free" = "pure" ... is the only way to tune without tempering.
- Problem is that to get perfect "JI" tuning on any instrument one would have to retune the instrument every time one changes key, as the perfect natural scale based on fractions only adds up optimally for one key at a time - the 12 note octave we use actually needs 12 "JI" tunings to sound perfectly natural in all keys. Not very practical, so very few, if anyone, play perfectly "JI" tuned instruments in Western music today.
- Although it is technically possible to rig a PSG's mechanics for almost perfect "JI" tuning in any key and for all pedal/lever combination, I have yet to see or hear one that is rigged that way - it would be a beast to tune...
All the various forms for "sweetened" tunings people come up with, are all various compromises between "ET" and "JI", which means they are less tempered than "ET", but they are all tempered tunings = deviations from perfect "JI" tunings.
- Most PSG players "sweeten" their E9 tunings to some degree. The closer they "sweeten" them to "ET", the easier it is to play in tune with other "ET" tuned instruments (in all pedal/lever combos). The closer to "JI" (in only a few keys) they "sweeten" them, the better they may sound all alone (in a few keys and pedal/lever combos).
Regardless of chosen tuning, an E9 tuned PSG can be played to sound well by itself and together with other (usually "ET" tuned) instruments. It is mainly a matter of playing by ear, disregarding all talk about keeping the bar straight and even while playing, and leaving out the worst-sounding intervals/chords. It becomes easier with time, they say...  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 9:00 am Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| very few, if anyone, play perfectly "JI" tuned instruments in Western music today |
This is true of pianos or flutes, for which equal temperament is a salvation. If we start from C tuning by ear to eliminate beats we find that more than 2 sharps or flats cause problems, as G# and Ab are not the same. ET frees us to play equally in any key, "equally" meaning equally out of tune but equally tolerable. (To achieve this you need a meter unless you are a trained piano tuner.)
But on the steel, we just move the bar to the new key and carry our tuning with us (whether it's ET, JI, Newman or your own special recipe).
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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DG Whitley
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 9:50 am
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I did not think Pianos were ET. I have always been told they used a "stretched" tuning (every note below A 440 was slightly flat and every note above slightly sharp). This is what I have always read.
I stand to be corrected. Thanks. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 10:32 am Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| But on the steel, we just move the bar to the new key and carry our tuning with us (whether it's ET, JI, Newman or your own special recipe). |
Sure, that will work for all tunings - theoretically...
But, in practice, do we always play the new key(s) with the same pedal/lever combinations as the previous key(s), and just move the bar up and down along the neck between keys? I rarely ever do that, and I cannot imagine anyone else is playing PSG that way either.
Unless a PSG is tuned to perfect "ET", or perfectly compensated for "compromised JI" = "sweetened" - and has zero body-drop, no two pedal/lever combinations will produce the exact same chords-note pitches. I think it is that simple phenomenon that creates most tuning-confusion and -problems for some players.
Back in time when I played trumpet, I would always sharpen or flatten notes slightly on-the-fly, either to get the intervals natural-sounding all by myself, or to get in perfect pitch with whoever I played with. Developed similar techniques on guitar, and later brought them with me to PSG.
The bar makes fine-tuning-on-the-fly a little harder to achieve, but not impossible. All good-sounding players do it... |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 12:06 pm Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| DG Whitley wrote: |
| I did not think Pianos were ET. I have always been told they used a "stretched" tuning (every note below A 440 was slightly flat and every note above slightly sharp). This is what I have always read. I stand to be corrected. Thanks. |
You are right - I was keeping it simple to make the point - although the piano is stretched in an equal way, if you know what I mean.
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
But, in practice, do we always play the new key(s) with the same pedal/lever combinations as the previous key(s), and just move the bar up and down along the neck between keys? I rarely ever do that, and I cannot imagine anyone else is playing PSG that way either. |
My point was that at any fret we choose to play on, our tuning is theoretically the same. We can switch from C to Db at the whim of the singer. The keyboard players of the 16th century could not do that. Yes, if you switch from C to G you would probably go for a different voicing.
| Georg Sørtun also wrote: |
Back in time when I played trumpet, I would always sharpen or flatten notes slightly on-the-fly, either to get the intervals natural-sounding all by myself, or to get in perfect pitch with whoever I played with. Developed similar techniques on guitar, and later brought them with me to PSG.
The bar makes fine-tuning-on-the-fly a little harder to achieve, but not impossible. All good-sounding players do it... |
I have also played trumpet, and other instruments where just about every note needs humouring if you are to dwell on it. Care of the notes is what makes a musician.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 12:43 pm
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| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| It is likely because of the music I play, but I've had exact opposite experience - started with just intonation, was told how out of tune I was (heard it in recordings too), went to ET 440 and haven't had a problem, other than a bad night... Who knows, you have to work with what works for you |
Makes sense to me. This past year I started playing with an instrumental group fronted by a guy who plays a Steiner EVI. I had to bring my tuning down to 440 and tune up my thirds a tad to be in tune with him on the melodies. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 1:36 pm
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The answer to most questions on this forum seems to be "It depends on what music you play" )!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2016 5:55 pm
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First few years I played steel I tuned right on the line. When I went to a tempered tuning, the very first gig I did after that the chick singer said "did you do something different; your steel sounds so much more ALIVE". Been tempering ever since then.
Also, since going to tempered tuning back in the early 90s, I have NOT broken 1 string, not even a G#.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 2:12 am
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Singers sing by ear, obviously, so as long as they are good singers who can control their pitch well, they will tend to move in natural intervals. (This is why autotune is such a giveaway.)
If a person has grown up in a world of keyboards and guitars where even-tempered triads sound normal, then they will be comfortable tuning a steel guitar that way. The reason I champion JI is purely because I grew up with brass instruments, which cannot be tuned to any system and must be nursed along note by note. If you instructed a trumpet section to play in equal temperament, they would have no means of doing so. Their only tuning method is the elimination of beats. (Those of you who have never played a brass instrument should know that the beats are not just something you hear but something you feel quite intensely.)
If a chord on my steel doesn't sound like a trombone quartet would play it, I can't live with it. A rod for my own back, maybe? I was worried the first time I played with keyboards, but nothing bad happened, probably because we avoided playing the exact same notes, which is good practice anyway.
So when Rich reports that a singer preferred his tempered tuning, that makes perfect sense, although I'm not so sure that his 3rd string is so much lower as to be less likely to break! Karma, perhaps, because he's seen the light
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 7:08 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| The reason I champion JI is purely because I grew up with brass instruments, which cannot be tuned to any system and must be nursed along note by note. If you instructed a trumpet section to play in equal temperament, they would have no means of doing so. Their only tuning method is the elimination of beats. (Those of you who have never played a brass instrument should know that the beats are not just something you hear but something you feel quite intensely.) |
From a similar background ... and I could not have said it any better
One of the electronic gismos I have permanently installed in my PSG sound-chain, tends to amplify beats - makes the sound-level pump. Instead of trying to suppress this "negative" phenomenon, I utilise it to force me to play out the beats for all intervals, and also sometimes as a deliberate effect when I slur note(s) into and out of a chord.
Sidenote: I learned to tune my brass instruments - trumpet and barytone horn - to "middle ground territory" ≈ "ET", simply because that made it equally easy to play out beats for any interval along with any group of musicians playing in any key.
Tuning "ET" and playing "JI" is definitely easier on some instruments than others ... my PSGs sounds best in all situations when I both tune out and play out the beats the best I can ≈ "JI" all the way. |
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Mark McCornack
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 8:50 am Re: Tuning -- what am I missing?
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
- Problem is that to get perfect "JI" tuning on any instrument one would have to retune the instrument every time one changes key, as the perfect natural scale based on fractions only adds up optimally for one key at a time -
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Though I do agree that getting a steel in tune is a BEAR, this statement puzzles me.
It would seem that if one has the instrument tuned such that the intervals are acceptable with the strings open, getting these chords then to play in tune chromatically up the neck would be just a matter of diligent bar placement.
Just like a good fiddler makes " micro-corrections" to fingerings to play in tune. IF a chord is in tune with open strings, I contend that any chromatic varient of the chord form can then be made with proper bar placement.
Is this not true? If not, why not 
Mark |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 9:25 am
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| I guess knew I was opening a can of tuning worms here. Thanks for all the responses so far, I'm learning from your posts, and experimenting as I have time. Will report back later. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 9:34 am
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Tuning to 440 in my band wouldn't make any difference because the guitar and fiddle player aren't in tune with each other anyway.
I tried the 440 tuning not long ago just for grins and it just won't work. With no way to set intonation due to the fingers all being in a straight line,unlike a 6 string bridge,it just will not be in tune.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 10:07 am
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Tommy, don't worry about the worms. (They're quite nourishing, apparently.) We aren't allowed to discuss religion on here but tuning is fine.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mark McCornack
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 10:22 am
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Well, there are many that would consider tuning hardly "non-secular"  Still, can't tread too lightly...
So, on those who subscribe to tempered tunings, what sort of schemes are you using? I've seen the one Jeff Newman publishes (wish it was in *cents* though), but are there any varients out there? Anything else that anyone has published, either on this forum or outside it?
Cheers,
Mark |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Aug 2016 10:27 am
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Mark, here's Buddy's tuning: most of the charts are pretty close to the Emmons or Newman settings.
http://www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm
I gave up on detailed charts, and do the following:
Seven notes are straight up, EXCEPT the following 5, which are 4-6 cents flat: A#, C#, D#, E# and G#. Those 5 are almost exclusively thirds.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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