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Topic: Switching a plain 6th to wound |
John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 2:46 pm
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Hi,hopefully I can get some pointers on this; On my GFI ultra i'd like to try a wound .022 in place of the plain .020- I had good luck on my Fesse,the problem being the split with the B pedal; The fesse has split screws on the changer- pretty straight forward; I had a rod installed for the split on the GFI.. there's a compensator to the A pedal so all 3 raises are spoken for. Is there a sequence I need to go thru or ??
any help would be appreciated, thanks. _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Jon Light
From: Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 3:30 pm
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IF I am understanding the situation, consider the fact that you will have less need for a compensator on the 6th string once you put a wound string on there. So you could ditch that rod and use the hole for the extra raise rod from the lower lever.
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 3:51 pm
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Jon-thanks for the reply- I didn't think of not needing the compensator; with the plain I was getting about a 15-20 cent drop with the A/F combination. so..since I already have the split rod, is it just a matter of getting more throw on the bellcrank and/or moving the lever stop with the wound string? _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Jon Light
From: Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 4:23 pm
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I'm a little confused but let me just address the things I am solid on.
You need more throw and/or leverage with the wound 6th string. On my Fessenden, the G#>F# lower lever requires a VERY long throw (as compared with a plain string). In fact, for this reason I have changed back to a plain 6th and then changed back again to the wound because of how much more stable it is re: cabinet drop.
And the B pedal may or may not need a leverage change---how the raise syncs with the 3rd string will be the biggest issue that might require changing the bellcrank hole/slot. |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 5:02 pm
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Jon-I reread my original post- I wasn't very clear about my question-sorry about that. When I got the guitar I had Billy Cooper add the split- the compensator came later. I did try a wound string at some point and got the full drop by moving the stop. the problem was I couldn't get the split to do what it needed to do- I'd set it and the open string would be sharp. I eventually bailed on it and put the plain string back on. I didn't want to start moving rods in the bell crank,I probably would have messed it up completely. Anyway, hope this is clearer, thanks _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Jon Light
From: Saugerties, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 5:25 pm
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Part of my confusion is that I use the word compensator for a rod, for instance, from the A pedal to the 6th string, raising it slightly to compensate for cabinet drop. This is the rod that I was suggesting might no longer be necessary with the wound 6.
I really don't want to attempt to address the rest of your post here. Too much chance of getting way out of whack and giving bad info without having my hands on guitar. |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 5:35 pm
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Not a problem at all- I was doing a world class job of getting it out of whack WITH my hands on it! thanks again for your replies _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 6:30 pm
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John Brennan wrote: |
I eventually bailed on it and put the plain string back on. I didn't want to start moving rods in the bell crank,I probably would have messed it up completely. |
Well, there's no way to go from a .020plain to a .022W without moving rods, so...
The nice thing with such a change on a GFI, is that it is about the easiest PSG ever made to move rods on |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 6:48 pm
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I have heard they are easy to work on- I'm probably over cautious; I'll take notes and pics as I'm making changes- once I've done it the overall mechanics will probably make a lot more sense _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 7:16 pm
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As I have put a .022W 6th string on my Ultra, I know that it can handle it just fine. You will have to move the lower-rod to the bellcrank hole furthest from the shaft though, and maybe even adjust stop-screw for that lever a tiny bit further out for longer throw - depends on string brand.
I have used both Jagwire LG series, and LSS (all same gauges as the Jag LGs), on my Ultra with excellent results.
Body-drop detuning will be minimal with a wound 6th, so I don't think you'll need extra compensators (I don't). Only the raise-rod, lower-rod and a split-tuning rod. |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 7:28 pm
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Is your ultra keyless? I've heard you can drop notes with less adjustment than with a keyed headstock(which I have),or if it's not enough to matter _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 7:33 pm
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My Ultra is keyless, so you will probably have to adjust the stop-screw on the lower-lever a little for extra throw. |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 30 Jul 2016 7:38 pm
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That shouldn't be a problem, I've got plenty of room on the stop screw; thanks a lot for your help _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From: now in Western Australia
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 3:41 am
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As a .022W will stretch about twice the length for a raise or a lower compared to a .020P string, you most likely will have to move the rod one hole further out on the bellcrank even if you only lower the 6th string a half note.
Important: while we have only focused on the lowering of the wound 6th string so far, we must not forget the half-note raise of that string that must be balanced (somewhat) with the raise of the 3d string. That 6th string raise-rod therefore also has to be moved further out on its bellcrank when switching from plain to wound string.
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For completeness: I have the regular half-note raise on B-pedal, pluss full-note lower with half-note split for both 3d and 6th string together, on the lower-lever.
(Lowering of the 3d string along with the 6th seems to be highly unusual, but I've had it like that for almost 30 years on my old, trusty, Dekley, and like what I can do with that 3d/6th string change.)
To make that work flawlessly - both strings raise and lower sound in unison and land on same pitch - I put in not only the half-note split for the lower, but also a fine-tuning rod on the 3d string raise bellcrank that goes to the lower-scissor for that 3d string.
This fine-tuning rod only holds back the 3d string raise a few cents - prevents it from sharpening the "A" on 3d string compared with 6th string pitch with the B-pedal fully on, and may or may not be needed in a more regular and simpler set-up that doesn't lower the 3d string.
The above is how I balance out 3d and 6th string on my Dekleys, and it was just so much easier to get it all to work flawlessly on the GFI Ultra because of its much simpler "rods to bellcranks attachment" system.
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For the record: my 6th string is a .022W, and the 3d string is a .0115. |
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Jeremy Threlfall
From: now in Western Australia
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Quentin Hickey
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 4:22 am
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What are the advantages of a wound .022 over plain .020? |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 4:31 am
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Quentin Hickey wrote: |
What are the advantages of a wound .022 over plain .020? |
For me it is all about "tone", "tone" and "tone", but it doesn't hurt that a wound 6th string is less sensitive to bodydrop detuning than a plain one. |
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Justin Griffith
From: Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 7:38 am
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Quentin Hickey wrote: |
What are the advantages of a wound .022 over plain .020? |
It will also keep the tuning more stable, especially one with a bunch of cabinet drop.
Downside, It needs more travel (especially the lower)
Edit: (Georg, I just re read your post. Sorry to repeat.) _________________ Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 8:18 am
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Justin Griffith wrote: |
It will also keep the tuning more stable, especially one with a bunch of cabinet drop.
Downside, It needs more travel (especially the lower)
Edit: (Georg, I just re read your post. Sorry to repeat.) |
I think it is a point that is well worth repeating
While I'm at it, I should mention that on my GFI Ultra I had to turn the lower-return spring upside-down to keep it from scraping (making sounds) on the lower-scissor during lowering. Easy enough to do, but it does say something about how close to the limit a lowered wound 6th string pulls on that PSG. |
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John Brennan
From: Falls Church Va.
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 9:05 am
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On my Ultra that 6th string one step drop is on rkl- it also raises string 1 one step and string 2 a half step; will backing off the nylon tuners be enough,or do you need to change it at the bellcrank? _________________ Fessy SD10 GFI ultra SD10 lots of basses and amps |
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richard burton
From: Britain
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 10:28 am
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It might be worth me mentioning, if only for information, how I did a simple modification to an all-pull steel many years ago, to get the changer to drop a wound 6th string a full tone.
The changer finger did not have enough travel to lower a full tone, but I realised that it had an abundance of travel in the raise direction, so I held the finger in a partially raised state by using a spring loaded device, and this was now the open note position.
Thus, I could still raise the note a half tone, and, by lowering the raise to its normal open position, and pulling the lower simultaneously, I could easily get a full tone lower.
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 11:31 am
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Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Quentin Hickey wrote: |
What are the advantages of a wound .022 over plain .020? |
For me it is all about "tone", "tone" and "tone", but it doesn't hurt that a wound 6th string is less sensitive to bodydrop detuning than a plain one. |
I remember reading once that the wound string sounds better on older guitars, and I can bear this out. I have an ancient pull-release D10 with single-coil pickups, and the wound 6th with the 6-8-10 grip gives a fine baritone growl. When I went to a 12-string universal I sought to replicate that but a plain string actually sounded better. Whether the difference is in the type of mechanism or the type of pickup (or both) I cannot say, but coincidentally on the B6 side of the tuning that string corresponds to the 4th (A) on the C6, and who would put a wound on there? _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Georg Sørtun
From: Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 1:10 pm
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John Brennan wrote: |
On my Ultra that 6th string one step drop is on rkl- it also raises string 1 one step and string 2 a half step; will backing off the nylon tuners be enough,or do you need to change it at the bellcrank? |
I suggest you start by leaving the 1st and 2nd string raises as they are, and get the 6th string lowering going. Those two raises should be close, so may be enough to trim the nylon tuners. |
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Quentin Hickey
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 1 Aug 2016 1:40 pm
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Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Quentin Hickey wrote: |
What are the advantages of a wound .022 over plain .020? |
For me it is all about "tone", "tone" and "tone", but it doesn't hurt that a wound 6th string is less sensitive to bodydrop detuning than a plain one. |
I'm with you Georg I'm all about the tone. I am assuming it will warm up the tone a bit. I will try this on my gfi ultra. |
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