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Topic: Buying Strings |
Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2016 3:44 pm |
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Just purchased my first lap steel (6 string Rogue) and have a question about strings (C6 tuning). Will strings labeled for "pedal" steel work on a lap steel?
There's an excellent cover video of "Cold Cold Heart" on YouTube. This is the type of music I'd like to learn. When purchasing strings do I need to take into consideration the gauge, windings, string material, etc. for the style of music I want to play, or is it technique alone to get that country sound? One person on YouTube said they used C6th tuning but used a "high G". No ideal what that means so I'm happy I found this site and the many lessons all of you have to offer.
Thanks |
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Robert Allen
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2016 9:51 am Thanks, Robert
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The source you gave me is just what I need. Thanks again.  |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 24 Jul 2016 12:36 pm Re: Buying Strings
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| Sanford Eisman wrote: |
One person on YouTube said they used C6th tuning but used a "high G". No ideal what that means so I'm happy I found this site and the many lessons all of you have to offer.
Thanks |
The most common version of C6 is (high to low) E C A G E C.
Using a set of strings intended for that tuning, you can also try A6 - E C# A F# E C# - this tuning is exactly the same as C6 with a G on top, but everything moved lower in pitch by 3 semitones - it's just a different inversion of the chord like playing a C on a guitar the way you first learn it with the open E on the top string or playing it as a barre chord at the 3rd fret with a G note on top.
I prefer A6 (or even C6 with the high G). One reason is that I like having the major chord on strings 123 and the relative minor on 234. I find having the 5th note of the chord available above the 3rd very useful too.
But C6 with E on top is probably more widespread and works for lots of people so I'm not going to knock it. |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 24 Jul 2016 1:10 pm
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Sanford,
A lot of Music Shops & suppliers will let you choose single strings to make up your own set, failing that just buy a set of C6th Strings meant for a Pedal Steel, you select 6 from the 10 strings supplied, you can vary up or down by a couple of "Thou" without adverse effects.
You might have heard me say on You Tube I use a High G on this tuning, in my opinion that extends the range and usefulness, others may think different and are just as valid. the Tuning and String Gauges are as follows -
High to Low. G-E-C-A-G-E .... 11-14-18-24-30-36
I had a look but don't have a recording of Cold, Cold Heart but I have attached another Hank Williams song using this tuning for you to judge if it might be for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib4FZCjKjOc
James Kerr. |
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Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2016 9:30 pm
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Do most lap steel players find a tuning they like and use it exclusively? I see pictures of pedal steels that have multiple fret boards which I assume is because each are tuned differently. If I play, for instance, "Sleep Walk" in the key of C in C6 tuning,
wouldn't it sound pretty much the same if I learned to play it in C on a G tuned steel? Do lap steel players also carry multiple guitars tuned differently and switch back and forth to get the dynamics they want for the specific song they're playing? I've been playing regular guitar for 50 years so I'm hoping the experience will help a little learning the lap steel.
Just a little confused if C6 is the best to start out with. I should mention that I jam quite often with a group of friends. In the group we have several banjos, a mandolin, a violin, a bass, and about 8 guitars (of which I'm one of). Since we have an abundance of guitars I thought it would fun to learn lap steel. We play and sing from printed sheets containing the chords and lyrics. We thus use the capo quite a bit for the singers. So a song printed in G we might play in G with capo 1, making it a G# for me if I play lap steel. So I'm hoping C6 will be the best tuning for me to start out with if I'm going to play in these sharps and flats. |
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Paul Seager
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Posted 24 Jul 2016 11:03 pm
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| Sanford Eisman wrote: |
| Do most lap steel players find a tuning they like and use it exclusively? |
The answer is probably yes. Any single note melody can be played on any tuning, it's just a quesiton of how convenient the tuning is to the melody but I wouldn't worry too much if you are using C6; most melodies are easily found without moving the bar around too much.
Another factor is the timbre. If, for example you need to play in melodies high up on the neck, you may find that the timbre of the tuning doesn't sound so good and may wish to drop to a lower tuning. Time will tell.
Chordal work is a different subject. C6 or indeed any '6' tuning gives you a Major + its inversions and the relative minor + its inversions at one fret. Dominant 7th chords are easily suggested without having to play all chord tones, even Major 7ths, Diminished ... it's all fairly easy to find using C6. If you want really rich chords though, other tunings support these better. I've read many comments regarding the richness of the E13 tuning; I am still trying it but for the music I play (Country and Western Swing) I seem to get all I need from C6.
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| Just a little confused if C6 is the best to start out with. |
Take a look at available educational material: It is almost soley C6 oriented. There's a reason for that you know!
I often join sessions with a number of guitarists and the C6 compliments guitars without interfering too much. In my early days I was often asked not to play too high up the neck ALL THE TIME, as it clashed with the solos of others - that's just part of the learning curve.
I did once struggle in a Irish / Bluegrass session. There I ended up alternating between an open G and G6 tuning which better suited the music ... but then almost all songs played were in G or Em!
_________________
\paul
Bayern Hawaiians: https://www.youtube.com/@diebayernhawaiians3062
Other stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@paulseager3796/videos |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 12:05 am
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| Sanford Eisman wrote: |
Do most lap steel players find a tuning they like and use it exclusively?
Just a little confused if C6 is the best to start out with.
So a song printed in G we might play in G with capo 1, making it a G# for me if I play lap steel. |
Don't know about most, but many stick with an exclusive tuning. I often use a quad neck steel and even then tweak the tuning on a couple of the necks for specific songs.
But just about all players start out with one tuning first of all and experiment with others once they are pretty comfortable in their primary tuning and most people have their "go to" tuning where they feel most comfortable. My 6 string lap steel is pretty much always in the same tuning.
Is C6 best to start with? Well, it's certainly not a bad place to start and the majority of instructional material is C6 but if you are going to mainly learn by ear (the way I did it) it doesn't matter so much. It's not impossible to use C6 learning material for other 6th tunings. If you've got High G and the learning material is High E, you just have to ignore your 1st string - your instructor's 1st string is your 2nd. If you are in A6, you do the same thing but also play everything 3 frets higher than your instructor (if this is too confusing to you, then good luck transposing songs on the fly from the key in which they are written).
Which brings me to the last point I quoted - transposing on the fly. To do this, you really know your way around the instrument. If the song is written in C and you are playing it in E, you need to see the chords and immediately play 4 frets higher. You can only do this if you pretty much instinctively know where those chords are in the first place.
As a guitar player of 50 years, I would bet that, if you imagine you are barring an A chord, you could tell me without a moment's hesitation that I'll find an E at the 7th fret, a G at the 10th and even an Eb at the 6th fret without thinking too hard. OK, now imagine you are barring a C chord - where's Eb? Did it take you longer to work that out? How about to work out where that Eb is and then play 4 frets higher? If you found this easier to work out starting from A then I'd suggest seriously considering A6 as the tuning to start with (which will work fine with a set of strings intended for C6 with a high E if you've already bought them and put them on).
That's pretty much why I started on A6 and it's my "go to" tuning.
Last edited by Jeff Mead on 25 Jul 2016 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 2:12 am
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One thing that concerns me about playing too high up the neck is intonation. Maybe not so much an issue when playing single string melodies; more so with chords. I play an ole Gretsch and I avoid over use of the Bigsby when I'm up high. The Rogue lap steel I have I've tried to intonate but have not been that successful. The tuner jumps all over the place at the 12th fret mostly on the middle strings. Looks like I'll have to forget the tuner and intonate by ear.
*** By the way- I can't express enough how appreciative I am of all the advice I received from each of you on this, my first forum post. Thanks so very much to all! |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 2:36 am
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| Sanford Eisman wrote: |
| One thing that concerns me about playing too high up the neck is intonation. Maybe not so much an issue when playing single string melodies; more so with chords. |
It's always harder to play in tune higher up the neck. That's one of the reasons some people prefer longer scale steels where the spacing is wider further up the neck.
I play short scale steels which, in my case on old Fenders and my 6 string Gibson is 22.5". To be honest, even though I prefer these to medium and scale instruments, I wouldn't want to go any shorter than that.
I know a lot of budget lap steels are well under 22.5" and also I've seen some where the fret markings weren't that accurate - especially beyond the 12th fret.
A lot of cheap steels have intonatable guitar bridges - completely unnecessary on a steel (you just need a straight bar) - and if you have them set staggered like on a guitar, you'll never play in tune. They should be in a straight line with the 12th fret harmonic directly over the 12th fret line.
If you can, you should try out a higher quality instrument and see if it's easier to play in tune. If you get the steel bug, you will probably be looking for another steel before long and you can get some great vintage instruments for a lot less than their regular guitar equivalents (for example, a 50's Gibson for less than $300).
I'm not familiar with the Rogues but if the problem is with the fretboard markers, you can buy replacement fretboards (or, even cheaper, stick-on versions) or even print your own from various online sources.
You'd need to find out what scale length you have of course - just measure from the nut to 12th harmonic and double it. |
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 5:18 am Set up the Intonation on your rouge.
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Those Rouges are 21" scales ,
You will want to set up the bridge saddles when you change out to your strings for C6 as Suggested by many steel players on this section.
The distance needs to be 21" from the nut inside edge to the top centers of the saddles.
Basically if you screw them all the way back with the springs still on that will come out to the 21"
Other wise you may need to remove the springs, - if you do remove them and there is some space behind the saddle , then put some material back there , This will help keep any clattering dead.
Guitar places now sell Surgical tubing that will go over the screw that works great.
But most likely if you just draw the saddles back with the springs on , it will get you close enough.
Make sure the saddles are as straight across as possible. Guitar types might argue this point, but we steel players are here to bring you over to being a Steel Player and we use straight across nut and bridges.
Last up , check the distance from the nut to fret 12 , and bridges to fret 12 , both should be 10.5 "
Those little saddles have height adjuster screws too, and you can balance the top level of the strings too.
A straight edge can help.
As Jeff suggested , if you or anyone else ever needs a replacement fretboard for low price , GeorgeBoards has them in stock.
For a "first one" steel those rouges are actually pretty good if you adjust the scale and put tuning correct gauges.
The Forum Sells String Sets <<Click
Buying strings and instructions from the fourm , is a great way to support the forums existence and future.
There are links across the top of the page to these items for sale.
_________________
GeorgeBoards S8 Non Pedal Steel Guitar Instruments
Maker of One of a Kind Works of Art that play music too.
Instructional DVDs
YouTube Channel |
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Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 6:47 am
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I re-adjusted the saddles as suggested and the G (C6 tuning) is a little flat at the 12th fret. Could be I'm not holding the bar perfectly straight.
I had purchased this Shubb GS-1
Are certain type bars easier to keep straight than others when playing chords and arpeggios? For playing single string melodies would I be better off rounding off the edge of this Shubb? |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 8:04 am
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If it's flat at the 12th fret, you need to move the saddles slightly closer to the nut to shorten the string length. The pure octave harmonic should be exactly over the 12th fret. Another harmonic can be found at the 17th (the same one as at the 7th) and at the 24th (same note as at the 5th).
I would take the harmonic as where the mid point is rather than measuring it. If those harmonics aren't over the fret markers, you're never going to be in tune.
Of course, with steel, depending on the height of the springs above the fretboard, you can have parallax issues because you are looking at some fret positions at an angle but you do learn to adjust for that. |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Posted 25 Jul 2016 11:14 am
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Sanford,
Leaving aside for a moment all the technicalities, your initial post indicated the type of music which interests you. I would suggest you listen to one of the Legends of the Lap Steel Mr Kayton Robersts, on the road and on the Record with Hank Snow for over 30 years, and I believe the Teacher of Mr. Chris Scruggs, a mean player himself.
Kayton plays a Twin 8, in C6th - A7th tunings. No superlatives of mine can do justice to what he does, listen here......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K3Z8NTwZp8
Then visit his home page for Vintage Recordings and info....https://kaytonroberts.com/
James. P.S. He retuned to Cm6th for this tune. |
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Sanford Eisman
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2016 1:02 pm
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| I appreciate all the feedback from each of you. As I result, I decided to go start with C6th tuning, knowing I can alternatively tune in A6 with the same gauge strings. I've got the intonation issue fixed and I did some minor adjustments to the saddle height to get them as level as I can. Now I just need practice, practice, practice! Never used finger picks on regular guitar, but trying them on the lap steel I was pleasantly surprised how much control I had using them for the first time. Best Regards to all. |
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