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Topic: E13th Universal kinda sorta!!! |
Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 6 Jul 2016 10:05 pm |
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For years I've tinkered with tunings trying to find that magic tuning and setup that would make everything I wanted to play lay simply on a single neck. As many of you know, I've had every pedal setup known to man at one time or another. Many variations of the C6th, Bb 6th ,E9/B6th and even a triple neck with E13th, E9th and an 11 string C6th.
I have so many heros and enjoy trying to play all those things Ive heard all my life. Especially the stuff from Weldon, Hal, Lloyd, Buddy E. & Buddy C. Curly, Reece Morrell. These are the guys that light me up when they play. Having said all that I had to find a way to get most of what their tunings and pedal setups had. Well I think I finally have it.
It's one tuning, 12 strings, 6 pedals and 5 knees. You don't have to think in E to play country then hold a knee lever and think in B to play a C6th style. No need for a lap steel to play E13th swing stuff either. The basic tuning is E13th.
High to low,
F#, Eb, G#, E, C#, B, G#, F#, E, D, B, E
Pretty much what we are all use to except for that C# in the middle and the E on bottom.
Now here is the setup (Day split)
R = RAISE L= LOWER
P1 R 3 & 7 G#s - A
P2 R 6 & 11 B s - C#
P3 L 6 B - A
P4 L 6,B-Bb, R 11 B-C, R 12 E-F#
P5 R 3 G# - A, L 7 G# - G
P6 R 9 E - F 10 D-C# 11 B-AB 12 E-C#
LKL L 2 Eb-D, 5 C#-C, 9 E-Eb
LKV R 1 F# G#-F#, 7 G#-F# (SPLIT)
LKR R 4 & 9 Es - F
RKL R 4 E-F#, 5 C#-Eb
RKR L 2 Eb-C#, 10 D-C#,11 B-A.
It may not make sense looking at it but let me just put it into perspective.
Pedals 1 & 2 are A & B.
RKL is the C pedal along with P2
LKL is like lowering your 2nd string a half and your 8th string a half.
LKR is your F pedal.
LKV is just like most guys have raising 1 and lowering 6.
RKR is like normal without the half stop. That's taken care of on LKL. Also when you have the RKR engaged the last four strings are like the last four of C6th but in E. You don't have to think in another key nor do you have to hold the lever.
P4 is half of the Franklin pedal.
Ok why not lower the 4th string. Well there is a big ole Eb right there on the 2nd string. Weldon, Hal nor Lloyd needed it. Also on RKL there is another big ole Eb on the 5th string.
Pedals 5,6 & 7 are the same as 5,6 and 8 on standard C6th.
So where is pedal 7? It's RKL....
Every pedal works together for all the stuff we play on E9th and C6th and we now have a big ole E13th too.
I'm having a blast with this tuning and setup. So far I haven't been able to not find anything on this that I had on my triple neck Zumsteel. I currently have it on a mid to late 70s MSA S-12 with an Alumitone pickup. That's what was in it when I got it but I'll put a Telonics in soon. I'm playing it at my Baldknobbers gig every night and will play it at the Ozark Steel Guitar Association show in Branson the end on this month.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2016 4:48 am
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| Wow! Though I stick to D-10, I've run alot of universal tunings through my mind... but I've never considered using the Morrell E13 as the base. That does seem like it would really maximize the chordal possibilities. I'll have to study this for a while. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 7 Jul 2016 6:04 am
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,,,,,"Pedals 5,6 & 7 are the same as 5,6 and 8 on standard C6th,,,,"
If anyone can test drive a copedent,,,Dumplin' can!!! However,,,,if it is a 6 pedal, 5 knee set up,,,why is the 7th pedal mentioned above?
Wouldn't this be pretty close to Zane Beck,,,and Zane Kings set up, except for the order of the strings? |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 7 Jul 2016 7:13 am
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Sonny, I'm not familiar with Zane King's setup. Zane Beck's was very limited as to the changes we have become custom to like raising 1 and lowering 6, Franklin pedal ect. The C6th 7th pedal is the RKL.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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rpetersen
From:
Iowa
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Posted 7 Jul 2016 4:52 pm
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Like what you are doing Johnny ... but I think I would really miss the 4th string lower
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Ron Petersen |
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Tony Dingus
From:
Kingsport, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2016 5:03 pm
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Looks great Johnny. I'd love to hear you play it. Ant chance for a youtube ?
Tony |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2016 4:16 am
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| Sonny Jenkins wrote: |
Wouldn't this be pretty close to Zane Beck,,,and Zane Kings set up, except for the order of the strings? |
After reading the description, my first thought was a similarity to Julian Tharpe's tuning... Though I haven't compared them in chart form. |
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Peter Nylund
From:
Finland
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Posted 8 Jul 2016 4:27 am
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For those who rather see a copedent this way. I hope I interpreted the post correctly.
(a couple of errors corrected)
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I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks
Last edited by Peter Nylund on 8 Jul 2016 11:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 8 Jul 2016 1:31 pm
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Thanks Peter, I don't know how to do that.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Posted 29 Oct 2016 6:09 pm Where is equivalent of C6th string 3 half tone drop C to B
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Johnny and Peter, thanks for posting this way of approaching the. U-12. I am considering this option.
I had a couple of questions for you, Johnny. On the regular C6th tuning, string 3 is the basic lever change as a C drops to a B note. Where is the equivalent on your tuning? I'm sure it is there but I am not seeing it. I like it on a lever IN COMBINATION WITH the four C6 pedals and hearing the sound of this half tone as it drops.
Also, am I correct in saying when using your pedals 4, 5, 6 and the RKL, you are actually getting an open E6th tuning rather than C6th, correct? The normal open C6th position at fret "0" would now start C6 at fret "8" which seems pretty high up the fretboard.
Johnny, I know you know more about this than I do. If you have time to answer, I would be appriciative Thanks. Stevet
Last edited by steve takacs on 30 Oct 2016 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hans Holzherr
From:
Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland
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Posted 29 Oct 2016 11:27 pm
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| For all those interested in analyzing in depth Johnny's copedent with my pedal steel guitar scanner http://www.banjo-tabs.com/psg_scanner.php, I've added his copedent to the list of loadable tunings. I've made the assumption that LKL and LKV cannot be used together with pedal 6 for anatomical reasons, but that can be changed on the compatibility chart. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 6:46 am
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| Hey Hans,,when I click the link to download all I get is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. Does it take a certain program to download,,,Excel or ??? |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 8:50 am
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| oh yeah,,,that's what I get! Looks like that would be a very good program to have,,,even better than Arlin Kabolin (sp) Guitar Map from way back when,,, |
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Hans Holzherr
From:
Münchenbuchsee, Switzerland
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 9:38 am
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It looks like you guys just clicked the links instead of right-clicking them and selecting 'Save target under...' on the popup menu that appears. Give it another chance, OK?  Thanks. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 10:22 am
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It's very clever! I love the fact that you can 'think' C6th yet still be in the E9th keys (if that makes sense). That's always thwarted me on the rare moments I've tinkered with a universal - making the adjustment in my head regarding the key I want.
I somehow doubt my ability, though, to move to a 12-string configuration. But if I could.....
This is very tempting! I also love the fact it's a 'Day' set-up - I can see the possibilities at a glance (thanks to Johnny's concept and Peter clarifying it with the graphics).
Is this in any way close to what Buddy was trying at one point?
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Henry Brooks
From:
Los Gatos, California, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 1:38 pm
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Actually, the E9 tuning containes a E13 its just hard to see because the string numbers one to five are not the same as the string pitches. What I'm saying is that the highest pitch is G#, the third string, the pitch order is G#, F#, E, D#, B. So, if you lower string two to C# and play strings 2, 3, 4, and 5 you have a E6 chord with the pitch order of G#, E, C#, B. The problem is that some of the inversions are hard to play, 2, 5, 6, and 8. Another thing this brings to light is that E9 is four frets higher than C 6. Playing strings 2, 3, 4, and 5 on C6 at the fourth fret is the same as E 9 with the second string lowered to C# in the open position. A E9 copedent that has a G# to F# and a tunable split to G basicly has a E 6 with all the C 6 pedals. Sorry if this is too far of topic.
Henry
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 1:39 pm
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Brilliant work.
The only thing I'd miss is from 12 ext E9, pedals down, holding the low G# to A(string 11), rocking A pedal to get the bend B to C# above it on higher string. You have the notes A, and B to C# bend on same string, or on different strings, but without the classic bend.
Correct me if I don't see it.
Important to note, this is not available on trad 10 string E9 either, where the B to C# is on the lowest string. This is one of the reasons to go to 12 string ext E9th.
Maybe 13?!
It would be great to hear you play some examples. We appreciate this hard work!
John |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 30 Oct 2016 4:02 pm
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One reservation for me is having the B-Bb lower on a pedal. I sue that a lot in conjunction with pedals - sometimes both B and C (Day).
I'm delighted to see the low D retained, though - universals often lost this string.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 1 Nov 2016 4:28 am
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I normally wouldn't post here as a non-pedal player but it would be great to get some input as my 12 string was setup with the same challenges in mind.
Would love to hear what you can/can't see?
what am I missing?
My tuning is also based on the Tom Morrell E13
How would you pedal players look at it. let's get this discussion going.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2016 7:50 am
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| Peter Nylund wrote: |
| For those who rather see a copedent this way. |
Thank you Peter for making it easier for me to read.
This approach reminds me of Red Rhodes, especially Johnny's P5, RKR, and RKL.
Here is a link to one of Red's tunings:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-009669.html
There is another similar one somewhere on this Forum. |
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Rich Peterson
From:
Moorhead, MN
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Posted 1 Nov 2016 1:19 pm
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4 raises on string 5? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2016 1:37 pm Re: What was Red Rhodes' setup in the '70s?
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| Ernest Bovine wrote: |
| Tab: |
LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 RKL RKR
F
Bb
G +Ab +Ab
Eb +F ++F -D
C +Db +C# ++D +Db
Bb +B -A ++C
G +Ab -Gb
Eb ++F
Db -C +D
Bb ++C --Ab
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Notes:
1. Red played a Fender then, which had a shorter scale than most modern steel guitars, so he could use high Bb.
2. It's very simple to change the second string from Red's high Bb (which may break) to the D string that most E9 players are accustomed to.
3. I'm not sure that the RKR above is correct. He may have lowered low Eb to D, not raised low Db to D.
4. I think the biggest difference between this and the normal E9 is that you would expect an F string between Red's 7th and 8th. I think sometimes he had a pedal or knee lever that raised his 8th and 9th from Eb and Db to F and Eb, so he could copy some E9 stuff.
5. Red sometimes used a 10-string Eb diatonic scale on his second neck; Low Eb to high G with a couple of pedals.
6. Around '77 or '78 he got a Dekley.
7. This is copied from the Winston book.
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<small>originally posted 19 May 2000 01:26 PM </small>
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 1 Nov 2016 6:33 pm
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Steve, in response to your question, at the time I put this up I would just grab string 2 for that major 7th. Since then I have added a 2nd LKL. LKLO lowers 2(Eb) & 5(C#) 1/2 tone. LKLI lowers both Es to Eb.
And yes E9th instead of C6th but all the pedals and knees work together within the tuning.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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