Changing the E to F pull

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

The recent BE post on changing the 10th string got me thinking a bit. I haven't tried this yet but would like some of your input and maybe someone has tried this. Instead of raising the 4 and 8 Es to F why not raise them to F#. I can still get E to F by lowering my Es on RKL(normal for me) via split tuning. This could eliminate the need for the C pedal and I could then use it to lower 5,6 a whole tone. The 10th could also be lowered a whole tone using the Randy Beavers method on the RKR. I only have one guitar with split tuning and I hate to make a major change like this without thinking it out real good. It seems like I could free up a pedal,get more flexibility and combinations in pulls,and loose nothing. Your input appriciated. Thanks, Roger

Steve Richter · From: Neenah, WI USA

Roger, what was the subject of the thread that with the reference to lowering the 10th string? Just wondering how far to lower and how it might be used.

Thanks,

Steve

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I thought about this a lot a few years ago. I came to the conclusion that it's a bad idea, because you lose the use of the first string in the #5 position.

For example, if you're in the key of C at the 4th fret, you need A+F+G to get all of the right scale tones on the high strings. If it takes two levers to get the F change, you can't add the G lever to it.

Unless you have 3 knees.

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

b0b,if we are all talking about the E9th tuning here and I think we are,how can we be in the key of C at the 4th fret?

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Fred Justice
Events Dir.
SWSGA www.swsteelguitar.com

[This message was edited by Fred Justice on 19 December 2004 at 03:21 PM.]

kbdrost · From: Prospect Heights, IL

And what's the "G" lever?? Does it take the F# to a G or to a G#? Does it include raising the D# to an E like many changes on this lever do? I don't think there's enough standardization yet to characterize this lever a certain way. For that same reason, I don't favor taking the F lever to an F#. This is a fairly standard lever that everyone uses. If you want to take the 4th string to an F# without raising the 5th string, add another lever to your guitar.

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Ken Drost
steelcrazy after all these years

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Let me try to explain it a different way what I'm trying to do. On most E 9th setups we raise the 4th string a half tone,lower it a half tone,and raise it a whole tone with either a seperate knee lever or the more standard C pedal. If you do it my way,the same thing can be accomplished with 2 knee levers instead of three or 2 levers and a pedal. For it to work you would have to lower on the right knee and have split tuning capability to give you the E to F notes. So why change it? You would then end up with pedal(C) (or a knee lever depending upon your setup) to do what ever you want to do with it and still have the same pulls and maybe be able to do more with them.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Fred, it's common to go to the 4th fret for the F chord in the key of C. You use the A pedal and the F lever.

At that fret, you need to raise the F# string to G (I call it the G lever) if you want that string to stay in the key of C.

The same is true in every key, of course. The A+F position for the IV chord always uses the G lever.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Bobby, If I understand you correctly you want to be able to play an F chord at the 4th fret and pull in the 1st string a whole tone to go with it. That's not something I can do to start with as my E to F lever and 1st string raise are on the same knee. It seems like any time you reposition anything there are changes as to what you are able to play. Just one of the personalized and unique features of pedal steel.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Not a whole step, a half step. F# to G.

This is part of the genius of Lloyd Green's minimalist copedent. The combination of D, F and G levers with the standard 3 pedals gives you a complete system of scales and triads. There are no "holes" in the system as you move from one position to the next.

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 December 2004 at 09:41 AM.]

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Bobby, I still have a 1st string raise but I don't see how it would ever be used in conjunction with the F lever. What am I missing? I also have to evaluate what I will gain on my new third pedal as I wouldn't need it any longer to raise 4,5.

I should be able to play everything this way that I currently play,without the C pedal, and have more variations of it. Sure wish I had another steel with split tuning to tinker with.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Steve,It was posted in Pedal Steel by Randy Beavers titled "A Chrictmas Car With a Gift".

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Opps, make that "Christmas Card". Sometimes I don't pruf reed two well. Sorry

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

A classic example is Russ Wever's Brisklick. You can see the F+G combination on Joey's tab at the 18th fret, the 13th fret, the 6th fret and the 1st fret.

But it's not just that lick! The concept is based on a continuous pattern of scales without any gaps. The fact that it's continuous makes all sorts of things possible.

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 20 December 2004 at 01:37 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Changing the E-F lever to E-F# and getting the F note w a split tuning is not something I would consider a good idea. Which knee would lower 2nd & 9 to C# while getting the F note(split w the other knee)
It wont substitute for the C pedal since you can get a high F# and a low F note at the same time with the standard E-F lever & C pedal. There are plenty of other reasons why it wont do the work of the C pedal. If one really wants Both E's to F# then it would be best on an extra knee lever. E-F on a knee lever is a needed knee-lever. Other raises on the same string will have to go on an extra lever!

Bengt

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Thanks guys for the feed back. It has been pretty interesting to see what everybody else is doing.

Bengt. The 8th string could be left as a normal E to F change. Whenever a pull is changed their is often a lick someone can't do, but it also makes new things possible. In this case like raising E to F# without pulling the 5th with it.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Roger, I had an old ShoBud S-10 at one time which only had two knee levers and 3 pedals. I was playing my U-12 at the time and just used this guitar for some jam sessions as I left my main axe at the club I was working. Anyway, one one lever was a LKL and the other was a RKR which is weird but that's the way it was when I aquired the guitar. The LKL lowered the 2nd string to D and lowered the 9th string to C#. The RKR lowered both E's to Eb (D#). The way I got my F lever was to use the C pedal and lower the E against the F# note. This way I got the same thing as using the A pedal and the F knee lever on the first 6 strings but the 8th string was a D# so it'd still be in the scale plus you could lower the 9th string which would bring about the root. Try that sometime by just doing a no pedals A on the 5th fret and then sliding up 3 frets and engaging your C pedal with the E's lowered. The ShoBud was pretty much in tune but some other guitars might not be. It'd be close depending on your string gauges...JH

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Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

There are so many combinations where one would like to raise (w full control) either 4th or 8th string E-F that putting a halfstop before to get the F# or just one of the strings raise to F# while the other goes to F will mess up the feeling of that lever.
I fully understand the reason for wanting to get that F# note somewhere else than the Cpedal.
That is why I have LKV raise 4th string E-F#.(it could easily be on my front LKL, but that one lowers 6th string to G. I could easily swap them so E-F# was on LKL2 and G#-G was on LKV. Personal preference said E-F# on LKV)
That was the 4th string.
I have a 2nd RKR that raise 8th string E-F# (Split tuned w LKR(E's-Eb) That is a really nice combination.
I really see the need for a 5th or 6th knee lever if one wants to veture past the more or less standard 4knee-lever setup.

If one wants the Bnote on the 5th string and a raise of the 4th string to F#, one easy substitute would be found 2frets down w the Apedal and play string1 and raise a full step.
I also encourage the "dare to be different" on the knee-lever setup. Just be aware of what you loose before giving up a perfectly good change.

Bengt

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I also have the high E to F# on a lever, but I don't even tune the split. I tried it once. It feels better without the split.

Also, the intuitive ease of the F lever on LKL is hard to beat. It's the most used lever on my guitar. It would really be a drag to have to press two levers to get that fundamental change, in my opinion.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Bengt, It sounds like you may also have experimented some. I haven't seen many 4th string raises on the vertical. It sounds like you have about 7 knee levers on the E neck. I have 5 and am trying to make the most of them. What do you have on your C pedal? I would change mine to lower 5 and 6 a whole tone if this other idea works for me. Seems like a good trade to me. I lower the 6th on my 4th pedal but I don't really like it there.

I can't work my vertical fast enough for the E to F#. I use it now to lower 5 and 10.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Bobby, I hear what you're saying. I use mine a lot too probably second to lowering the Es. I think I could cope with using two levers to get E to F but I'm not sure about the feel. I had the E to F# on LKR for 23 years but was using up 3 knee levers just to work the ever so important high E.

It's all a game of sacrifices and it's driving me nuts. HELP!HELP! take me away before it's too late. Things were much easier with the old 8 string Fender before knee levers.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've always had 3 levers working the 4th string. Why not?

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Yes,I have done a lot of experimenting and I have my own list of why's and where certain changes ought to be. My set of resons might be completely different from others so make sure you make your own decisions of what you want to do musicalwise. If you can't figure it out on paper do it the hard way by physically changing the setup and see how it feels and if you can play the combinations you want.
I started with 4 knee levers on my first guitar and after a while I felt the need for additional levers but had to wait until I could find the right PSG. My main PSG has 7 levers as you posted. LKL1 LKL2 LKV LKR ------- RKL RKR1 RKR2
I could have had the 4th E-F# on LKL2 instead which also would work fine but then the G#-G would feel a little awkward on LKV since I use it both w/w-out pedals pressed.
My C pedal is still there with the standard changes. Although I get the same notes with a different combination the feel and sound of how the notes bend up a whole tone is different. I still have the PSG w 4 levers so it is not an absolute must to have all those changes. It just makes some options to make some strings ring while having control of individual strings to raise/lower at the same time.
Things I did consider on the LKV before settling on the 4th string E-F# was
3&6 G#-G
10&5 B-C
10&5 B-Bb
8 E-F#
6 G#-A#
1&7 F#-G

The challenge is to avoid putting two changes that you want to use at the same time on the same knee, thus making it impossible to play. For the most part when I use both Left and right knee for a combination the knees move either both inwards or both outwards at the same time. But I also have combinations where the knees both move left or right but those combinations are more used for occasionally passing chord positions and not for holding permantly for a long period.

Happy hunting for your perfect setup which will allow you to play the music the way you hear it should be.

Bengt.

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Thanks Bobby and Bengt for sharing your thoughts on this setup. It's what makes the forum such a wonderful thing for us to have.

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

I have to agree with b0b here... as other folks seem to be doing (though I can't claim the credentials or sophistication of their logic... just my own perspective):

The E-F raise is so fundamental to a lot of different styles, and might even get used more than the E-Eb change for knee levers at least the way I'm used to it, that I would in no way want to have to double up to get that note. Having it readily accessible without gymnastics, and giving it the clean, positive feel that comes from it being a half-stop and split free change is something I wouldn't give up on. Anyway, I have E lower and E raise both on my left knee, so I couldn't do it even if I wanted to.

Getting the E-F# change on a lever would be pretty cool, though... it would free up the C pedal for something more interesting (G#-G perhaps?)

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