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Topic: Cabinet drop |
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 12:48 pm |
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I'm curious about cabinet drop. I suppose it's inherent in most steel guitars
regardless of manufacturer, at varying degrees, and there have been some
manufacturers that have addressed it in different ways. But my question is
simple: Where on the guitar body is cabinet drop happening? Is it like my picture?
If so, wouldn't one or two metal bars ran from one end plate to the other fix this by making the guitar more rigid?
Just wondering
JB
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 12:59 pm
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There was only one time I experienced cabinet drop.
I was lifting my Sho~Bud Pro III out of the case by the knee levers and one of them broke.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 1:29 pm
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It's a complicated topic. There are many components in a pedal steel which are not as rigid as we would like, and they all contribute.
On any stringed instrument, if you tighten one or more strings, the others will slacken. What's different about the pedal steel is that you do it on the fly. It's a question of whether it's noticeable, and then if it's manageable with a compromise tuning.
Extra metal (or wood) means extra rigidity but extra weight. I have an old D10 which is rock-solid in tune but tough to haul.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 1:57 pm
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Most times, it's a non-issue. It's a big talking point because a lot of players spend more time looking at a tuner than they do listening to their guitars.  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 2:00 pm
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| Some guitar players play all night without tuning and others tune all night without playing. |
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Joshua Tschetter
From:
South Dakota
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 2:11 pm
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| John, when you pull strings 3 & 5, what do you think happens to string 4? I call it the wash line effect...If you have 3 strings and pull the two outside strings tight what happens to the one in the middle??? That's called cabinet drop! |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 2:43 pm
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The main reason I ask is because I have had many steels over the years and some have much less drop than others, but all have some.
My personal tuning trick is after I tune open, I then use pedal A along with the lever F and retune all the open strings as necessary with those two engaged.
It is, as you say, a "compromised " tuning, but it's the best way I know to compensate for drop and everything sounds better.
I would be very interested in how others do it. Perhaps there's a better way.
Thanks guys
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 3:03 pm
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The forces are as the OP described.
Tension applied above the horizontal deck will flex that deck. The deck is flat and is bending in it's weak direction. What resists it is the side pieces which should be well connected to the horizontal deck for it to help in resisting the applied moment (bending force)
Also, something I've never heard anyone speak of is the deflection of the axle at the fingers. There has to be quite a load there and i imagine it deflects enough to contribute. The axle is loaded by the strings, 10 at 25lbs and a circle doesn't have a very high moment of inertia (geometric term for resistance to deflection) |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 4:14 pm
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| John Booth wrote: |
It is, as you say, a "compromised " tuning, but it's the best way I know to compensate for drop and everything sounds better.
I would be very interested in how others do it. Perhaps there's a better way. |
John, if it works for you then there isn't "a better" way.
The only thing I do different, is that I only tune, and check and recheck, 3d and 6th string in open position with B-pedal down for "A" notes. All other notes, using all pedal/lever combinations, I tune by ear for full chords with the bar on the strings, mainly at third and fifth fret.
I tune for beats - compromised JI tuning, and rarely ever use a tuning device for anything but that reference "A" note.
The reason for tuning full chords with the bar, is that no matter what I'm playing there aren't all that many chords/notes I need open tuning for. Nearly everything is, or can be, played with the bar on the strings, and I only need the reference notes - "A" - to tune all else to. The rest of the open tuning falls in place all by itself.
| Stephen Williams wrote: |
| Also, something I've never heard anyone speak of is the deflection of the axle at the fingers. |
20+ years ago I replaced the changer axle on my Dekley S10 - telling the people who made the new one that I wanted an axle that had to handle more than 200lbs sideways load and rather break before showing any flexing. The difference between the old and new changer axle was audible, so clearly the original axle was flexing a little with varying string-tension.
Then I checked the stability in the attachment of the pillow-blocks to the top-plate on that PSG, and found that it also could do with some improvement.
After integrating new pillow-blocks in the new aluminum-neck I designed for improved tone and sustain, there was no more "body-drop detuning" to worry about - inaudible on all strings and only measurable (about 1/2 cent) on string eight.
I'm OK with that since that particular instrument handles some serious - extra long - changes with ease...
I do have other PSGs that aren't quite as stable. Irritates me a little at times, but not enough to bother doing anything about it. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Jun 2016 10:27 pm
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Dennis Montgomery knows an excellent guitar when he sees one. Take a look at this old Fender 800. . .
Cabinet drop was invented after Leo stopped making those remarkable Fender 400s, 800s, 1000s & 2000s. Pure genius!
The Army Corp of Engineers couldn't get a Fender guitar to go out of tune if they tried.
Craig
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 1:20 am
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
Cabinet drop was invented after Leo stopped making those remarkable Fender 400s, 800s, 1000s & 2000s. Pure genius!
The Army Corp of Engineers couldn't get a Fender guitar to go out of tune if they tried. |
And that tells us what about whom ? .... oh, never mind  |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 2:09 am
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Erv,Yer killin' me!!! 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 7:47 am
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| Thanks, Stu! |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 10:15 am
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Don't forget cabinet raise which is exactly the opposite !
But it's very difficult to hear. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 10:28 am
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I guess if you combine cabinet drop with cabinet raise, you come out just about right.  |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 10:58 am
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| John Sluszny wrote: |
Don't forget cabinet raise which is exactly the opposite !
But it's very difficult to hear. |
Is that what you get when you push the vertical lever?   |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 11:34 am
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Exactly!!
You can raise the cabinet right off the ground. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 12:02 pm
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| A ground-lifting experience ... no wonder it's difficult to hear when contact with GND is lost. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 12:38 pm
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| Who dropped their Cabernet then? |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2016 12:38 pm
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| Who dropped their Cabernet then? |
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Steven Meister
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2016 10:55 am
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| What is a typical amount of cabinet drop, in cents? |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2016 10:56 am
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I don't know what is "typical" per se, I get as much as a couple cents on some guitars. Just enough to bother be.
JB
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Jun 2016 6:09 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
| Some guitar players play all night without tuning and others tune all night without playing. |
Erv,,, You stole that line from Buddy Emmons ? lol
_________________
Bill |
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